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Hopefully I'm posting this question in the appropriate area. Say I'm doing a partial water change, 5 gallons of a 20 gallon tank. My assumption is that I only use enough conditioner to treat the 5 gallons of new water. It would seem to me if I treated all 20 gallons of water I would be using too much conditioner, especially since I'm doing these partial water changes every couple of days. Am I correct? Thanks!
 

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For small water changes I don't think it's necessary to dose the whole tank. Common sense prevails there :). But if you were doing a large change, like say 80%, then you might as well dose the whole tank. That's how I look at it. Others believe you should dose the whole tank no matter what - that's what the instructions say to do. It's up to you to decide what to do :)
 

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Hopefully I'm posting this question in the appropriate area. Say I'm doing a partial water change, 5 gallons of a 20 gallon tank. My assumption is that I only use enough conditioner to treat the 5 gallons of new water. It would seem to me if I treated all 20 gallons of water I would be using too much conditioner, especially since I'm doing these partial water changes every couple of days. Am I correct? Thanks!
that's correct.
FWIW most all de-chlorinators, water conditioners and the like work be reducing chlorine and ammonia. Some reduce chloramine to chlorine and ammonia.


They use sulfur based compounds that actually are toxic to fish. Plus the resultant "locked up" ammonia still tests as ammonia with most ammonia test kits.


The danger is you treat, still test ammonia, treat again (or a week later) and so on. When all along, that first treatment may have locked up all the ammonia and the subsequent treatments were 1) unnecessary and 2) dangerous. The treatment also locks up oxygen so it is possible with overdosing to suffocate the fish which will display the same exact symptoms as ammonia poising.


Live plants instead work by consuming ammonia directly and CO2 and returning oxygen and fish food. Along with no water changes (or very small weekly ones) the chlorine/chloramine added is easily reduced by the natural action of the tank making chemical additions at least unnecessary (at most harmful).


But that's just my .02
 

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Again bob, no one kills their fish with water conditioner and it's just fear mongering to suggest that water conditioner is unsafe to use. Really ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

The OP says they don't want plants and you try to scare them into following your method??? Shameful.
 

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Hopefully I'm posting this question in the appropriate area. Say I'm doing a partial water change, 5 gallons of a 20 gallon tank. My assumption is that I only use enough conditioner to treat the 5 gallons of new water. It would seem to me if I treated all 20 gallons of water I would be using too much conditioner, especially since I'm doing these partial water changes every couple of days. Am I correct? Thanks!

You are right only add enough conditioner to treat the new water going into the tank. I will normally do a little extra so in the 20g tank you change 5g I would treat for 6-8 gallons that way you know its good.

But like Jay said if you do small changes you don't need to treat, I have done 20% changes and not had any issues but I normally treat to be safe.
 

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As for what Bob is talking about if you use "Prime" or other conditioners it will "lock" the ammonia so it is safe for the fish but will show on a test kit. Doesn't matter keep doing water changes and the cycle will happen and when ammonia is 0, nitrites 0, and nitrate 10+ you have cycle pretty easy.
 

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Again bob, no one kills their fish with water conditioner and it's just fear mongering to suggest that water conditioner is unsafe to use. Really ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

The OP says they don't want plants and you try to scare them into following your method??? Shameful.

I disagree and hope all posters here have awesome aquariums with healthy fish.


An example of my concerns were discussed in this old thread http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/advanced-freshwater-discussion/effect-prime-oxygen-levels-aquarium-294058/


Sodium thiosulfate is a very common de chlorinator whose msds' specifically state a danger to fish when released in the environment.


By contrast, using live plants not only avoids all those dangers but actually makes the tank healthier for fish.


my .02
 

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Bob lets be honest, you don't care about what anyone actually wants to do - all you are here to do is push your very specific method of keeping fish. Anyone can simply look at all your posts and see that that's the case. Doesn't matter what the topic is, doesn't matter what the OP says - you're here for only one reason. To promote the beaslbob method. You don't care what falsehoods you spread in order to accomplish that goal, as is evidenced by quoting the MSDS. Utterly ridiculous and shameful.
 

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Bob I try not to get into debates but I think you are over stating the risk. We all want to keep healthy fish and just like anything else in the world if you use the product correctly it will be perfectly safe. But if you don't it can be harmful.

Having tanks that are very heavily planted can cause issues also like plants pulling O2 out of the water at night meaning less for the fish. And yes that will take a huge amount of plants and lots of fish but just saying it can happen. There is not perfect way to keep fish in small glass boxes we can't make it like it is in the wild so we do the best we can.
 

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Bob I try not to get into debates but I think you are over stating the risk. We all want to keep healthy fish and just like anything else in the world if you use the product correctly it will be perfectly safe. But if you don't it can be harmful.

Having tanks that are very heavily planted can cause issues also like plants pulling O2 out of the water at night meaning less for the fish. And yes that will take a huge amount of plants and lots of fish but just saying it can happen. There is not perfect way to keep fish in small glass boxes we can't make it like it is in the wild so we do the best we can.

Agree 100%.


FWIW IME although plants do respire lights off, decreasing oxygen and increasing co2, the tank becomes a net producer of oxygen and consumer of co2 each 24 hour period. And based upon pH measurements in my non circulated tanks the co2 at night is much lower and oxygen much higher than tanks with no plant life and with circulation.


still just my .02
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You are right only add enough conditioner to treat the new water going into the tank. I will normally do a little extra so in the 20g tank you change 5g I would treat for 6-8 gallons that way you know its good.

But like Jay said if you do small changes you don't need to treat, I have done 20% changes and not had any issues but I normally treat to be safe.
As for what Bob is talking about if you use "Prime" or other conditioners it will "lock" the ammonia so it is safe for the fish but will show on a test kit. Doesn't matter keep doing water changes and the cycle will happen and when ammonia is 0, nitrites 0, and nitrate 10+ you have cycle pretty easy.
Ok, thanks. Didn't know that Prime locks the ammonia and that the ammonia would still show on a test. How long is it locked up for? I don't want to be testing for it if it's not giving me a true measurement.
 

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24 hours.

Too, something to keep in mind is that prime is safe to dose up to 5 times the recommended dosage.....just to give you an idea about what is and isn't safe.
 

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Sodium thiosulfate is a very common de chlorinator whose msds' specifically state a danger to fish when released in the environment.


By contrast, using live plants not only avoids all those dangers but actually makes the tank healthier for fish.


my .02


Bob I checked the MSDS sheets



Says it's toxic to mosquito fish at 24,000 mg/l. Doesn't say anything about being a danger to fish when released into the environment.
 

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Ok, thanks. Didn't know that Prime locks the ammonia and that the ammonia would still show on a test. How long is it locked up for? I don't want to be testing for it if it's not giving me a true measurement.

One way of avoiding this is to measure the free ammonia using the seachem multitest kit (or the seachem ammonia dot)


see: Seachem - MultiTest: Ammonia


from that page said:
This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert® and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar competing products. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.
 

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The seachem ammonia alert "dot" is a much more sensitive test than a standard test. The scale of the reading the test gives is extremely narrow, ranging from 0.02 to 0.5 ppm if I recall correctly. This may possibly be helpful in a cycled tank, but it's not suited for a cycling tank with its much higher concentrations of ammonia, and it doesn't address nitrite..... so it's usefulness is quite limited. Best to stick to a standard test kit.
 

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Bob I checked the MSDS sheets



Says it's toxic to mosquito fish at 24,000 mg/l. Doesn't say anything about being a danger to fish when released into the environment.
Other than don't pour it down the drain. LOL


not surprising the Prime manufacturer doesn't have the effects on aquatic life available. Yet it does state one fish. Other msds's state mortality to those fish.


my .02
 

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The first one is for sodium thiosulfate.

Second is prime.

You're not supposed to pour vegetable oil or bacon grease down the drain either. It doesn't say why not to pour it down the drain, so I guess that means you can claim it means whatever you want....

But "don't pour down the drain" is a FAR CRY from your claim of "specifically state a danger to fish when released in the environment"

Doesn't seem very specific at all Bob.


Here's another one for sodium thiosulfate
 

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I'm glad your msds points out the 'high concentrations will contribute to elevated chemical oxygen demand in aquatic environments.' so it does lock up oxygen.
 

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I got some jungle conditioner with Aloe when I purchased my aquaqrium should I consider using Prime instead I looked at Petsmart and it was not that expensive.
 
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