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Awesome video!
 

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Very nice. It's sad that many species in such seemingly wilderness areas suffer from man's pollution.
 

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I connected my laptop to my flat screen and watched it in full. WOW is all I can say and Thank you for sharing this amazing video work.
I was struck by how much movement and flow the plants experience in the wild and think that I should "up" the water movement in my tank!
 
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I was struck by how much movement and flow the plants experience in the wild and think that I should "up" the water movement in my tank!
Yes, there was quite a bit of water movement wasn't there...
 
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I connected my laptop to my flat screen and watched it in full. WOW is all I can say and Thank you for sharing this amazing video work.
I was struck by how much movement and flow the plants experience in the wild and think that I should "up" the water movement in my tank!
It was a great video. I watched it earlier today as well. You should with the right direction of current according to your selected fish's natural place of origin. I watched videos of most of my fish in their natural habitat to make sure I did my best to recreate it( as much as I wanted to). Especially my fav tank. Their colors are brighter and they are very healthy from best I can tell.
 

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Food for thought: Bear in mind that these were filmed in rivers in the wild. I believe that the pond and tank raised fish we mostly have never lived in waters like these....for generations. This is akin to attempting to match a perceived water chemistry that your fish never lived in.

I connected my laptop to my flat screen and watched it in full. WOW is all I can say and Thank you for sharing this amazing video work.
I was struck by how much movement and flow the plants experience in the wild and think that I should "up" the water movement in my tank!
 

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Food for thought: Bear in mind that these were filmed in rivers in the wild. I believe that the pond and tank raised fish we mostly have never lived in waters like these....for generations. This is akin to attempting to match a perceived water chemistry that your fish never lived in.
Really?? Because Byron and others make QUITE a big deal about keeping fish water that is similar to their natural habitat. That's the first thing many people here ask when someone wants stocking help - "we can't help you till you tell us your water chemistry..."

I think it's safe for you to definitively say that the tank raised fish have never lived in wild rivers. Are you suggesting that the fish forget how to swim in such a setting? Or are today's fish just too lazy? Besides, even the likes of my ridiculous, unnecessary, waste of money (did I forget something?) filtration systems don't even come close to a river setting.
 

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Those are very valid points AD and Jaysee. We forget that many fish are just local tank raised fry sometimes or shipped in from some other city on our own continent and not raised in the correct PH water anyway. Does that mean that only the "wild caught" fish at the store should be kept in the correct water PH? Does the fish's genetics dictate the best PH regardless of whether it was born in my city water?
 

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I simply stated that we sometimes over think and attempt to duplicate water chemistry and/or conditions of wild fish when in fact, the fish we have most likely have been pond or tank raised from Florida, Ohio or East Overshoe Idaho. If/when that's the case, it makes little sense to me to attempt to duplicate the wild 'natural aquarium' of a Venezuelan river.
I'm sure that most LFS water is from the local tap, not the Amazon.
Consider too that the video also exposed that only about .5% of the waters are clear enough to video...but we rarely hear of folks taking steps on purpose to create cloudy, murky water in aquariums.

If you know you have wild caught fish then maybe you need to attempt to recreate the same conditions as closely as possible, otherwise it's debatable as one could make the same argument for tank or pond raised fish.

Really?? Because Byron and others make QUITE a big deal about keeping fish water that is similar to their natural habitat. That's the first thing many people here ask when someone wants stocking help - "we can't help you till you tell us your water chemistry..."

I think it's safe for you to definitively say that the tank raised fish have never lived in wild rivers. Are you suggesting that the fish forget how to swim in such a setting? Or are today's fish just too lazy? Besides, even the likes of my ridiculous, unnecessary, waste of money (did I forget something?) filtration systems don't even come close to a river setting.
 

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I simply stated that we sometimes over think and attempt to duplicate water chemistry and/or conditions of wild fish when in fact, the fish we have most likely have been pond or tank raised from Florida, Ohio or East Overshoe Idaho. If/when that's the case, it makes little sense to me to attempt to duplicate the wild 'natural aquarium' of a Venezuelan river.
I'm sure that most LFS water is from the local tap, not the Amazon.
Consider too that the video also exposed that only about .5% of the waters are clear enough to video...but we rarely hear of folks taking steps on purpose to create cloudy, murky water in aquariums.

If you know you have wild caught fish then maybe you need to attempt to recreate the same conditions as closely as possible, otherwise it's debatable as one could make the same argument for tank or pond raised fish.
Evolution of anything..be it a plant a human or a fish, rarely is done that fast( or de-evolutionI should say). I could be wrong but I don't think I know of any fish that have been tank raised and bred for 1thousand years. one of my tanks I can say all of their parents are wild from their african lakes..can even say which area or reef those parents were caught in. But I know some of my other fish have been generations away from nature but if we are striving to give the BEST advice then we should look harder into what that really means. My angels that are a few generations away from the wild caught do prefer the side of my tank with more current and really enjoy all the plants I put in there. I can't really speak on man made species because I really don't approve of them...and thats because we can't even know what to recommend for food or proper housing but other then that I think it is a good idea to create what their parents or ancestors would have thrived in. To be honest the store I shop in would have been shocked and quickly corrected it if I had been advised to not do so.
 

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Was/is clear to me,,that our glass boxes of water do not have the benefit of tides ,current's ,or rain's to help remove toxin's like in the wild, and that frequent large water changes are the single best practice to get in the habit of for health of fishes.
Add a large thriving plant mass,,and afore metioned frequent large water changes,, and is about as well as we can do in the enviornment 's we subject the fish to.
Temp's,and filtration,,we can control, along with proper research to ensure fishes are compatible with source water we use ,,and tankmates ,tank size,we select.
 

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It is interesting how a statement about water movement has grown into a discussion of water parameters, tank-raised fish, water changes and beyond.:lol:

Starting with the initial issue of current. One has to remember that the current in a river or stream is not uniform. It runs fastest in the middle, and at the margins can be so slow as to be non-existent. And this is where many of the fish live, under cover of overhanging vegetation for security. There is also the fact that if we see a video of these fish in what appears to be a strong current, remember that first, you don't know how "strong" the current actually is, and second, the fish can escape it at will. When we set up an aquarium with mega water movement, it is 24/7 and the fish have no escape. And this is something many do not realize, but it can easily be proven.

If you provide a large tank, such as my 5-foot 115g Amazon Riverscape setup, you can use a canister that will deliver a decent current. I have a Rena XP2 and I removed the spraybar so the water is a stronger direct flow. The filter outflow is positioned on the back wall about 15 inches from the left end, aimed directly into the end wall. I wish I had video capabilities to show this, but I don't so words will have to suffice. The flow is fairly strong. When fish approach that end wall, you can see them swimming strongly. I have this setup because in a standing log at the end right in front of the filter outflow I have a trio of Spotted woodcats (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/catfish-species/centromochlus-perugiae-194673/) that must have a current. When introduced to the tank, they all three took up residence in that wood. Aside from the extreme left end, the plants in this tank do not sway at all, unless a fish swims past the leaf. It is instructive that my shoals of cardinals, Robert's Tetras, most of the cory species, hatchetfish, Garnet Tetra, and rummys rarely if ever venture into that area, but remain centre and to the right. When provided with the option, the fact that the fish stay out of the current is, or should be, instructive to all of us.

Second issue mentioned was fish adaptation to water parameters. This is very, very limited. The GH (even more than pH, unless this is extreme) is of more significance to fish physiology. I deal with this subject more in my article on stress, there is a section on the long-term effects of water parameters. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...icles/stress-freshwater-aquarium-fish-188673/
There is not the slightest doubt but that this does impact fish health and lifespan.

As one member correctly noted, fish that have evolved over thousands of years to function in a specific environment are not going to substantially alter in a few years or even decades. We now know that this "adaptability" we thought existed is not really so prevalent. There are some species that do adapt better, but when you look into their natural environment and range it becomes obvious why this is the case.

The other thing that must be remembered is that the majority of commercially raised fish are livebearers that generally match most people's water more than some other fish. Along with those species that do "adapt" better. Most of the soft water fish are wild caught, or raised commercially in outdoor ponds in SE Asia which is much the same thing with respect to water parameters.

Byron.
 

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We as large group can, when put together, look like a serious case of ADD :lol:

But yes...as you said.. I was trying to make it clear that the option of current(yes OPTION) should be available to fish that are from that type of environment in nature. Plants and rocks and decor plus proper current placement should offer spots where they can avoid it but taking the option away from them when that is in their nature just doesn't make sense. The fish profiles on TFK talk in the description part about what they both behave like(this is an insinctual thing) and what they would prefer to live like (another instinct). Instinctual behavior is something that works best when given a habitat best to your ability mimicking where they are found in nature... which then I would deduce that creates less stress for the fish and a better health and more fun to observe. Very mixed communities makes that a bit more complicated but not impossible.
The video that started this discussion is a great starting point for people to understand their fish. I like to see such stuff when stocking my tanks to understand whats best for them... maybe thats a result of studying psychology.. IDK. lol
 

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Exactly! My point was that our fish are best served by maintaining a pure water, stable, balanced environment. We've seen many times that some hobbyists, especially newer ones, may attempt to make dramatic changes to their local water chemistry based on a belief that like the wild fish, they require this or that hardness, pH or whatever. But this is often not the case and this may not be very sustainable long term and swings in chemistry can be very harmful. More harmful than slightly harder water with a slightly higher pH (for example).

Was/is clear to me,,that our glass boxes of water do not have the benefit of tides ,current's ,or rain's to help remove toxin's like in the wild, and that frequent large water changes are the single best practice to get in the habit of for health of fishes.
Add a large thriving plant mass,,and afore metioned frequent large water changes,, and is about as well as we can do in the enviornment 's we subject the fish to.
Temp's,and filtration,,we can control, along with proper research to ensure fishes are compatible with source water we use ,,and tankmates ,tank size,we select.
 

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I believe fishes we purchase today,,can/do, adapt to prepared food's,can adapt to slightly warmer /cooler water ,slightly differing pH,GH, so long as they are stable, but few if any will adapt to poor water condition's Whether it be from organic waste that accumulates due to poor maint routines,or as Abby's Dad mention's,,wildly fluctuating parameter's from chasing some magic pH.

Water movement from filter's in my tank's holding tropical's,,= 6 to 8 X the tank's volume GPH and has been for a few decades.If it becomes concern,,I can adapt the flow to suit the fish by adjusting the flow down.(seldom is case).
I like redundancy in my filtration and so I run two filter's on nearly all tank's.If one quit's,,I'm covered,
It also afford's me plenty of room for customizing media.
Would ALWAY's use filter rated for next size larger tank than that which I have.
Only on this forum,, is slower flow,less is more,,favored/ preached with such vigor:lol:
 

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I cant believe that posting a video that demonstrates what kind of habitats our fishy friends relatives come from has sparked such an imformative and passionate debate!

Damn i love this forum!! :-D
I think that is because few of us... (except maybe Byron and a few others on TFK) really really knows where their fish came from, or how it should live... only in generalities maybe for some... the rest just set up hand-me-down tanks, re-sales, and small kits and then buy what is avail at the LFS tank/shelf. I for one was fascinated and surprised.

~~ walks away and mutters.... "gonna have to take that SpongeBob ornament out of my tank now!~~ :lol:
 
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Only on this forum,, is slower flow,less is more,,favored/ preached with such vigor:lol:
Yes, I've found that that is a viewpoint particular to some on this forum. Every other forum I've been on preaches the exact opposite, with equal vigor :)
 
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