[CowgirlFishKeeper]

For the last few days, my Ryukin, an assumed female orange and white named Peachy Keen, has been sideways and lethargic. I have fed her a couple peas, and have withheld food since, and she is in a net (double netted for safety) in my tank because I don't have a hospital tank. They all get fed at LEAST twice a week (they have live plants they devour and snails they get now and then) and I alternate between high quality flake and soilent green. When neither of these did much, I have put some malachite green in her net, small at first. This does perk her up and put her right side up, but usually for around 20 minutes of trying to eat the net before flopping back on her side. The interesting thing is, she isn't bobbing, she isn't twirling, she's just.....laying there. The snails (Trumpets and Rams horns) and ottos are totally fine, (they're my warning fish), and the other 2 ryukins and shubunkin are very healthy. My Clown Pleco is his usual shy and hungry self (he has wood). Plants have no scorching or haven't seen any odd stunting or growth spurts. I obviously cannot add salt, and the heater is at 18 degrees Celsius. Poor Peachy literally looks like she is passed out drunk. I can touch her, talk to her, jiggle the net, and she is still as if she's fast asleep on her side about an inch under the water. Only the malachite green perks her up, and then she will respond to me and be perky again and try to eat the net....but, then, back to the listless floating. In the last 24 hours, her breathing has slowed, but then perks up fine. I only give a couple drops at at time, as it mostly stays in the net and she tries to eat it.

I don't have test kits, but I have never had an issue, and all but one Ryukin have been from the same pet store, including my plants. I have no reason to think that it's nitrate related, and it doesn't present like constipation or swim bladder. She hasn't pooped since I fed her peas 3 days ago, and all the other tank mates are totally fine.

It is a 33 gallon, over filtered via a HOB and canister filter to around 100 gallons, and water changes are done between 30 and 50% monthly (as the new water tends to stun the Ryukins no matter what temperature, how long it sits, or whether or not I add things like cycle or water conditioner). The substrate which is mostly covered in plants is crushed coral so small that if they swallow it, it will pass through, and there are no pebbles or rocks, except those too large to swallow.

I am at a loss here...

Plants I have are Tape grass, horn wort, a breed of amazon sword, one that's got leaves that have red on the bottom and green on the top (sorry, I have no technical terms), Russian moss balls that were torn to bits and are now are re growing as hundreds of little balls, and something I have only called Jade Leaf. It's slow growing and rounded. It's a deep green color, and the main root is supposed to be above the gravel. There is no sign of hair algae, scum, or anything of the like. Lighting is HOT5 x2 bar, 100 and something watts (sorry) of plant lighting. There is a power head (really small one) that keeps the surface moving, and 3 bubblers along the walls. Hope I didn't miss anything important!

Help?....

 

[CowgirlFishKeeper]

As you can see, she's not bloated or anything, just...there. Forgive the plants, they're due for hedging and the net stops the bridgy thing from staying in place...:lol:

 

[ao]

I've heard that fancies (especially the super fancys) are happier in warmer waters... Usually warmer water (>70Fs />21C i believe) aids digestion. I'm not completely sure what is wrong with the poor thing However, I DO know people who know their stuff, hopefully they'll be along soon it's 3 am here in east coast USA, but I'm sure they'll get to you in the morning!


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[Flint]

How large are all the goldies? It would really be best if you could get a liquid test kit and tell us your parameters.

A 33 gallon won't be large enough for your current stock list, unfortunately. Fancy goldfish need 20 gallons for the first and 10 for each goldfish from there. The longer-bodied goldfish need much more space as they get even larger. Generally speaking, ponds are best for these as the appropriate tank for one would be a bit ridiculously large.

 

[CowgirlFishKeeper]

They are all very young, about an inch to two inches long. I over filter and do water changes, and so I know what I am doing. I did not come to be lectured about my tank, but for any insight as to why Peachy Keen is dying. If yo read my ENTIRE post, which it seems you didn't, I have THREE Ryukins and ONE shubunkin, meaning I have 4 GOLDFISH total. The Shubunkin is 8 years old and is not getting any larger and shows no sign of stunting. Like I have said before, I over filter, and I have had MANY pro aqueons state this is FINE as long as I perform water changes and don't over feed them. I don't.

Glad to know your priority is to natter at my tank when I have a mysteriously dying fish.



For those who AREN'T here to natter:

Peachy Keen is totally ignoring the malachite green now, and is attempting to swim, but looks rather like a zombie and ends up only slowly swimming in place. Her breathing has slowed too.

 

[Flint]

They are all very young, about an inch to two inches long. I over filter and do water changes, and so I know what I am doing. I did not come to be lectured about my tank, but for any insight as to why Peachy Keen is dying. If yo read my ENTIRE post, which it seems you didn't, I have THREE Ryukins and ONE shubunkin, meaning I have 4 GOLDFISH total. The Shubunkin is 8 years old and is not getting any larger and shows no sign of stunting. Like I have said before, I over filter, and I have had MANY pro aqueons state this is FINE as long as I perform water changes and don't over feed them. I don't.

Glad to know your priority is to natter at my tank when I have a mysteriously dying fish.



For those who AREN'T here to natter:

Peachy Keen is totally ignoring the malachite green now, and is attempting to swim, but looks rather like a zombie and ends up only slowly swimming in place. Her breathing has slowed too.

Not everyone knows, no need to get upset we are here to help. I never stated that you had any number other than what you stated and I did read your post. Twice, actually.

We really need to know your parameters to help to the full extent but it sounds like a swim bladder issue. I'd feed more peas and see if you can clear out her constipation.

At 12" a fish, the space and filtration necessary for the fancies as adults simply won't be provided in a 33 gallon.

 

[CowgirlFishKeeper]

My shubu isn't 12 inches long. She isn't going to get more than 3" long, she is fully grown. She's been fully grown for 4 or 5 years. She won't get to 12". There seems to be a new subspecies now of dwarf shubu, at least that is the theory the pet shop owner is thinking, because the entire brood she came from are all under 5 inches, some of them were eaten by their pondmates as the others grew big enough to eat them. So now he is trying to contact some experts in the fish sciences to come and look. He's now breeding them in the back of the store. She's not a mislabeled comet, either. As for the Ryukins, my oldest and largest is almost 8 years old and hasn't grown at all in the last 2 years, so I would guess they are just smallish. I have seen small adult Ryukins. Plus, even IF they get that large, I STILL over filter and have been told its perfectly fine as long as I can water change and not over feed. Now if all the hulabaloo about my tank is past...

I don't think it's honestly swim bladder because she isn't even trying to swim at all. Just short bursts of flopping. Since she's also no longer trying to eat the malachite green, I doubt she would eat any peas, or soilent green, and I can't force feed her. She also isn't hard in the sides or stomach. It is a puzzle for sure.

 

[thekoimaiden]

First off, you do have issues with your tank whether or not you want to believe that. It is possible to have small goldfish (I know because I have two), but the big issue I'm seeing is with your water changes. It's common fishkeeping practice (especially with goldfish) to do weekly water changes. This goes for heavily planted tanks, too. Whether or not you are feeding the fish once a week doesn't change the fact that they produce ammonia all the time. I don't know of any goldfish site that won't recommend weekly water changes. That's my first recommendation.

We don't mean to attack your fishkeeping practices, but usually when someone has an issue with goldfish, it's water quality related. We are just trying to rule that out as a cause. I have some more thoughts about what might be wrong, but first I want to address the water quality. No use treating for something if the fish will get sick again because of poor water quality.

As to the temp, while your ryukin is like this, it might not be a bad idea to get a heater and raise the temp to above 22C. Warmer temps help fancy goldfish digest food better (and she may need medicated food). Ever single ryukin I've had did have issues with digestion. As a result I now use a heater in the winter to keep the temp around 23C.

 

[keepsmiling]

The only way to really help you is if you are willing to help. That starts with getting liquid test kits and testing, or take a sample to your LFS and please post the results. Your fish could have a myriad of things, from internal parasites, to a bacterial infection, to SBD. With SBD the swim bladder actually flips over, causing the fish to be unable to maintain the right position. You need to get her out of the tank, and into a shallow QT. The small amount of malachite you are adding near her is doing nothing.
Regardless if you do not want to know it, it isn't right for me NOT to mention{as you may not want to make changes, but someone doing research and who wants to keep their fish in an appropriate sized tank may want to know} I agree a 33 gallon tank is no place for four goldfish. The clown loach has not been mentioned, which should be with at least 5 others of his own kind, needs a huge tank to do right by him, and should also grow to 12+"

 

[CowgirlFishKeeper]

Peachy has passed on - and to make sure, I have fully dosed with malachite. Water change will happen on the weekend, and apparently no one can read because I stated it was a CLOWN PLECO not loach. I would never keep a clown loach in a 33.

If it were water quality related, my snails and ottos would be sick or dead, and the other Ryukins would at least be slowing down some. My most sensitive plants should be scorching or melting, and the water should smell. I know what to look for.

As for water changes, I already explained why they don't happen weekly. Every time, no matter what I do, it stuns the other Ryukins, and one of these days its going to kill them. This is why I have fish, plants, snails, and a nose to tell me when things are off. That being said I know full well that I need test kits, but it has to wait until after Christmas because I have barely enough to live on as it is and the kit I have now is too old to be reliable. With no gas in the car, I can't go have the water tested, which is why I posted here because I know enough to monitor that on my own without help.

I am greatly offended that you people think it's appropriate to harp on about someone's tank when they have explained why. Instead, you've chosen to harp on and make me feel as if I have no right to have fish, and I had to divulge WHY I can't afford these things right now.

As you can tell by the photo there is an abundance of plants that devour bad chems and all that, and I filter WAY above what they need, and I was informed by not one, not two, but FIVE separate CAREER fish tank business owners that if I am sure to over filter and the flow isn't too high that it will be FINE, and has said if the changes are stunning the fish, do it along with a prune once or twice a month and that will help more - but if I notice some of the issues Peachy has seen, to change 50% a week for a couple weeks and put the Ryukins in a bucket while I do it so they don't stun. I plan on doing one on the weekend, one on the next weekend, then a third, and going back to my normal schedule.

Thanks for helping so much and helping me stop my fish from dying.

Oh wait.

 

[ao]

I'm sorry you feel this way My condolences on the passing of Peachy...

The sarcasm was somewhat uncalled for - those who replied to your post had nothing but concern for the well being of your fish...

I do think it is important to keep looking for answers as to why your fish died. Ie, if it was a disease, parasites, and take preventative measures for your other fish.

I'm unsure of the specifics of your water changing practices.. but I was just thinking about you mention your fish being "stunned" by water changes...
I'm curious whether you are using like temperature water to perform water changes? Sometimes a large temperature difference between the old and new water and adversely affect fish...

I do wish you and your fish all the best. I've read over everyone's posts a couple of times and really don't think anyone is trying to say that you "have no right to keep fish". They seem equally concerned about your fish as you are...I hope you will feel better soon...


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[keepsmiling]

I am sorry for your loss. And sorry I misread about the pleco being a loach, I had a hard day and was tired.
No one here could have stopped your fish from dying, he was too far gone.
If water changes are stunning your fish, then there must be a variance in the water you are using to change, and your tank. Either PH, or temperature is my guess.What are you using to dechlorinate? Do you know if your local water does use chlorine, or is it possible they are using chloramines? In a 33 gallon tank, with my knowledge of goldfish, I would only recommend two goldfish, and eventually those two would still need an upgrade.You did not have to say anything personal about your situation.

 

[Flint]

I'm personally concerned with the size these goldies are at their age....

 

[jaysee]

When neither of these did much, I have put some malachite green in her net, small at first.

Here's a helpful tip for the future - liquids permeate nets.

Thanks for helping so much and helping me stop my fish from dying.

Oh wait.

It's very difficult to cure a fish once it's in that situation. It can be a genetic issue - a result of their deformity, or it can be environmental - a result of how they were kept. Or, more likely, it's a combination of the two. The fish can be predisposed to problems that environmental factors exacerbate. It is ESPECIALLY difficult to treat fish when you don't have a quarantine/hospital tank.

 

[Chesh]

I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your little Peachy. . . It is always hard to lose a friend. . .

... also sad to read that you felt you weren't getting the help you needed, and especially for your impression that our members would in any way imply that you "have no right to have fish." I did not read their comments in the same light as you seem to have, so wanted to take the time to clarify any misunderstandings that may have come about in this regard.

I know most of the posters on this thread fairly well, and can assure you that their intention was only to help you in the best way they were able. Some of these posters have been keeping goldfish for years upon years - they also "know what they're doing", and they each have gone out of their way time and time again to help so many people bring their animals through tough situations. I am always very grateful for their willingness to spend so much of their time helping complete strangers - and this thread is no exception. Some of these members devote hours of their busy lives to helping those in need, and a few of them have even helped me personally when I've run into tough times. My hat is always off to them for their dedication to our forum, our members, and all of our beautiful fish!

With your years of experience in keeping these animals, I'm sure you understand that questions regarding water quality are always going to be the first and most important questions asked in any situation involving a sick fish. This line of questioning was not meant to insult you, nor was it intended as personal attack. I wish that there were some easy cure-all potion to solve problems like this one, but unfortunately the only way to find the root of any problem is to consider all possibilities - and water quality is the most important thing where fish are concerned. . . perhaps even more so with goldfish, as they carry such a heavy bioload. I can only assume that you are familiar enough with the needs of these animals to understand this.

Just to lend a bit of perspective, I can not tell you how often we are informed that a large goldfish in a cycling 10g tank is "fine," and that the water is "fine". . . you know as well as I that in situations like these,"fine" is rarely the case! It is because we see so many situations like this one, as well as deal with issues in tanks belonging to more advanced members such as yourself, that we feel it is imperative to start from the very beginning when trying to come up with a diagnosis and/or treatment plan - regardless of how long the member has been keeping fish without incident.

The very beginning is always to take a closer look water quality and parameters. . . in my opinion, this is as it should be! Fish are so much a part of the water in which they live that the two can not be separated. . .

Again, I apologize if you took this as a personal affront. It was not intended as such. Furthermore, I have to commend these posters for doing their best to be through and address alll issues that could have potentially had a direct effect on the health of the animal in question. No harm was intended, I assure you.

Just as an aside, I also struggle with making ends meet, but test my tanks religiously. I see from your posts that you feel as if your water quality is exactly where it should be, but my theory on this is better safe than sorry - I test my water religiously, so just wanted to let you know (on the off-chance you hadn't thought of it!), that in most cases your LFS will be happy to test our water for no charge. . .so if you ever should want to check those parameters, it doesn't have to cost you a dime! Just be sure not to take 'fine' for an answer and get actual numbers so you know exactly where you stand.

Once again, I am sorry for your loss
I sincerely hope that this issue was confined to only one animal,an that things settle back down in your tank. . . *hugs*

 

[sandybottom]

i am sincerely sorry you lost your fish.

 

[sandybottom]

you stated that she eats the snails. well there is a problem with that. trumpet snails have conical shells,if they are ingested they snag and rip the fishes insides. there is no way to remove them.i have read about many fish dying from this. and also there are no miniature or dwarf species of goldfish or koi. and even if there were it would take about 20 years of breeding to get to that result.a true breeder would not want the genetically inferior fish, otherwise we would have had them 500 years ago. what is actually happening is the growth hormones that the fish put off are not being removed from the water in the form of water changes, effectively stunting them. the fact that they are overcrowded and underfed also exacerbate this.i would invest in a good liquid test kit and iron out the bumps. do not add anymore fish to this tank. and start doing regular water changes, either one 80% a week or 2-3 smaller ones per week. dechlorinate the water and make sure it is within 2 degrees of the original tank water. your fish should be fed 2% of their body weight per day. these two points alone keep away most disease. i made a few bad mistakes at my fishes expense when i was first starting out.luckily i had help from experienced keepers, willing to help. i also did a lot of independent study to get where i am today. it would probably serve you and your fish well to accept help from others instead of being reactive toward them.nobody here killed your fish, you did try to blame it on them though.this was very rude. i am not here to judge you on your fish keeping skills.i am here to help as many people as i possibly can,so they do not make the same mistakes that i did. best of luck in your future endeavors-sandy.

 

[jaysee]

I have no doubt that you've read about MTS killing goldfish, but I wonder how many people ACTUALLY opened up their goldfish, and how many of them would be skilled enough with a knife to keep everything in tact in the process to be able to determine that it's insides were torn up. Not many, if any, is my guess.

I agree - they've been selectively breeding goldfish for SO LONG that if there was going to be a mini goldfish, we would have them. Though there is no question that the fancy goldfish are genetically inferior to their original counterparts. The fancy goldfish ARE mini goldfish

 

[rickey]

I agree - they've been selectively breeding goldfish for SO LONG that if there was going to be a mini goldfish, we would have them. Though there is no question that the fancy goldfish are genetically inferior to their original counterparts. The fancy goldfish ARE mini goldfish

There are mini goldfish, we bred them down from 18'' to 8" but do expect much more.
R

 

[keepsmiling]

Sadly the OP has not been back since the fish passed and her last post. I hope you will reconsider if you are upset about anything that was said, or missed. None of us are experts, but we do try to give the best advice we can in an endeavor to help all aquarium hobbyists. Those who are here now, or may even become members in the future looking for advice. Any advice we do give, is based on our knowledge of and experience in the hobby. It is never to chastise or belittle anyone. hugs