So I've been pondering the reproduction rate of nitrosomonas bacteria and how it relates to the cycling process and stocking/adding new fish. There is lots of information out there that all says nitrosomonas typically double in numbers every day and closer to 12-16 hours in optimum conditions. Sooooo if that is the case could us aquarium keepers hypothetically stock their tanks like the geometric sequence 1,1,2,4,8,16,32......etc? So after 1 fish populates the tank with ammonia and you have enough bacteria to handle the load of one fish if you got one more fish the bacteria should double to match the double fish load in 24 hours and so on. Just a thought...nothing I want to experiment for myself. Any thoughts on this?
nitrosomonas reproduction
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Yes, and it also explains why it often takes so long to cycle a tank. You may be starting with bacteria in the 10's or 100's, working your way towards millions.
You'd better have a backup plan, as well as an understanding of how the different products available work in regards to ammonia & nitrite. A mature colony of nitrifying bacteria is capable of doubling in that amount of time, mature means several months if not years. This explains why newer aquarists at times have cycling issues when adding a few fish, and old farts like me can add 100 fish to a tank that contains 10 without much worry.
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I especially like Tolak's differentiation between a new colony and a "mature" colony.
My research indicates that 12-16 hours is a little optimistic even under ideal circumstances (temp ~ 84*, lots of O2 and circulation, dark, high pH). I think 24 hours is more to be expected. More than that for nitrospira, which oxidizes nitrite (nitrobacter, if you're an old guy like me and Tolak ;-))
If you're interested in stocking heavily from the beginning -- like a shoal or two, or larger fish -- that's when I think a fishless cycle is more appropriate.
My research indicates that 12-16 hours is a little optimistic even under ideal circumstances (temp ~ 84*, lots of O2 and circulation, dark, high pH). I think 24 hours is more to be expected. More than that for nitrospira, which oxidizes nitrite (nitrobacter, if you're an old guy like me and Tolak ;-))
If you're interested in stocking heavily from the beginning -- like a shoal or two, or larger fish -- that's when I think a fishless cycle is more appropriate.
Thanks for the input guys. This wasn't meant for any practical applications. Just a curious thought. At either rate this method would be a drawn out one anyway. If I were looking to do a large initial stocking I would say to go fishless cycle with a high ammonia capability but that's neither here nor there.
Salutations Hallyx:
Somehow I have gotten the notion from the above posts that a mature bacterial colony is different from a youthful, younger, smaller bacterial colony. Is this difference due to ammonia oxidation is greater in larger bacterial colonies than smaller younger bacterial colonies. Iam not so sure this assumption is correct, smaller less mature bacterial colonies may process the same amount of ammonia as mature colonies but produce as a byproduct less co2 than a more mature bacterial colony .
Another way in which we can view mature nitrification is from the prospective of a mature biological filter which is one of falling pH and rising nitrate. For ole school fish keepers this is known as old tank syndrome.
pop
Somehow I have gotten the notion from the above posts that a mature bacterial colony is different from a youthful, younger, smaller bacterial colony. Is this difference due to ammonia oxidation is greater in larger bacterial colonies than smaller younger bacterial colonies. Iam not so sure this assumption is correct, smaller less mature bacterial colonies may process the same amount of ammonia as mature colonies but produce as a byproduct less co2 than a more mature bacterial colony .
Another way in which we can view mature nitrification is from the prospective of a mature biological filter which is one of falling pH and rising nitrate. For ole school fish keepers this is known as old tank syndrome.
pop
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Greetings, pop
Young or old, once a colony is oxidizing all the ammonia and nitrite there is, it doesn't get any bigger.
As I visualize it, a young, growing colony grows fastest in the filter, where most of the circulation and oxygen is. It gradually spreads all around the tank, sticking itself to surfaces, including plants and livestock, and the substrate. Correspondingly less is then being handled by the filter. Proportionately, how much is on the surfaces depends on the circulation and oxygenation it receives. But the overall colony remains the same size.
As you accurately point out: ... less mature bacterial colonies may process the same amount of ammonia as mature colonies... But I don't understand what CO2 has to do with it. The nitrifying bacteria fix nitrogen by adding oxygen. So you get nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3). Do they produce enough surplus O2 to be bound with CO2? I thought they just released H+ ions.
In a mature tank there is also a thicker richer biofilm where the nitrifying bacteria live, in a soft comfy bed of other bacteria and fungi, which nurtures and protects them. (I can't remember what it's called right now .) I'm sure that has something to do with the phenomenon that Tolak and I and others have observed -- that a mature colony grows faster to accommodate increased bioload. Then there is that the filter is no longer growing bacteria at it's maximum rate, so it has extra capacity available.
I also agree with: ...a mature biological filter which is one of falling pH and rising nitrate. Part of the waste product of nitrifying bacteria at work is acid (Is it carbonic? Nitric? Tolak knows what kind.) which lowers the pH. Conscientious old-time fishkeepers perform water changes to prevent the resulting old tank syndrome.
Please don't take umbrage that I neglected to look up some details above.
Young or old, once a colony is oxidizing all the ammonia and nitrite there is, it doesn't get any bigger.
As I visualize it, a young, growing colony grows fastest in the filter, where most of the circulation and oxygen is. It gradually spreads all around the tank, sticking itself to surfaces, including plants and livestock, and the substrate. Correspondingly less is then being handled by the filter. Proportionately, how much is on the surfaces depends on the circulation and oxygenation it receives. But the overall colony remains the same size.
As you accurately point out: ... less mature bacterial colonies may process the same amount of ammonia as mature colonies... But I don't understand what CO2 has to do with it. The nitrifying bacteria fix nitrogen by adding oxygen. So you get nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3). Do they produce enough surplus O2 to be bound with CO2? I thought they just released H+ ions.
In a mature tank there is also a thicker richer biofilm where the nitrifying bacteria live, in a soft comfy bed of other bacteria and fungi, which nurtures and protects them. (I can't remember what it's called right now .) I'm sure that has something to do with the phenomenon that Tolak and I and others have observed -- that a mature colony grows faster to accommodate increased bioload. Then there is that the filter is no longer growing bacteria at it's maximum rate, so it has extra capacity available.
I also agree with: ...a mature biological filter which is one of falling pH and rising nitrate. Part of the waste product of nitrifying bacteria at work is acid (Is it carbonic? Nitric? Tolak knows what kind.) which lowers the pH. Conscientious old-time fishkeepers perform water changes to prevent the resulting old tank syndrome.
Please don't take umbrage that I neglected to look up some details above.
GOOD MORNING;
I don’t understand the usage of the word umbrage, I have great respect for you knowledge and faith in the correctness of your views Hallyx. You do not deceive or falsely represent facts or truths.
I do not understand chemicalize at all the co2 is produced as a result of bacterial respiration. As far as movement of nitrification bacteria around the aquarium is a puzzle for me. I must be wrong believing that the good bacteria lives on surfaces and not in the water.
I do have a question of interest though, is the structure of a bacterial colony reflective of the morphology of the original bacterium and as the colony grows will it follow this pattern.
Another thought will the unstirred layer created by fluid dynamics affect the growth of the bacterial colony by restricting resource access? Is the biofilm the result of the unstirred layer?
Last thought is there more than beneficial bacteria in our tanks and will these other forms of bacteria apply pressure on resource allocation?
I do not expect any answers to above queries, just what I am thinking about.
the purple possum rides at midnight !!!!!
I don’t understand the usage of the word umbrage, I have great respect for you knowledge and faith in the correctness of your views Hallyx. You do not deceive or falsely represent facts or truths.
I do not understand chemicalize at all the co2 is produced as a result of bacterial respiration. As far as movement of nitrification bacteria around the aquarium is a puzzle for me. I must be wrong believing that the good bacteria lives on surfaces and not in the water.
I do have a question of interest though, is the structure of a bacterial colony reflective of the morphology of the original bacterium and as the colony grows will it follow this pattern.
Another thought will the unstirred layer created by fluid dynamics affect the growth of the bacterial colony by restricting resource access? Is the biofilm the result of the unstirred layer?
Last thought is there more than beneficial bacteria in our tanks and will these other forms of bacteria apply pressure on resource allocation?
I do not expect any answers to above queries, just what I am thinking about.
the purple possum rides at midnight !!!!!
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Good (next ) afternoon,
I'm sorry, pop. I guess umbrage was too strong a term. I was just feeling a little guilty about not having looked up the proper terminology for the bacterial/fungal consortium composing the biofilm matrix (excluding the nitrifying bacteria.)
All bacteria live in the water column and are conveyed to all parts of the tank. They don't just spread out from one origin, as many people seem to think. They are present in the water, but don't reproduce until attached and settled in -- and fed and aerated.
I'm not sure about your question concerning morphology. I think the answer is that the bacterial composition of any given area of biofilm varies with it's local environment (filter, substrate etc,). I think that's the answer to your other question as well.
As for whether other bacteria compete with the nitrifying bacteria for resources: I'm sure they do. It's one reason why some bottled bacteria (heterotrophic) must be continually re-dosed, and why nitrifying bacteria sometimes have a hard time getting established in that environment. Rpadgett looked closely at this. I'll see if I can find him and direct him here.
While I think these observations are fundamentally correct, there is an ongoing discussion about the minutiae and mechanics of the bacterial relationships.
I've been thinking about this for a while, as well, pop. Thanks for the opportunity to write it down to clarify my thinking.
I'm sorry, pop. I guess umbrage was too strong a term. I was just feeling a little guilty about not having looked up the proper terminology for the bacterial/fungal consortium composing the biofilm matrix (excluding the nitrifying bacteria.)
All bacteria live in the water column and are conveyed to all parts of the tank. They don't just spread out from one origin, as many people seem to think. They are present in the water, but don't reproduce until attached and settled in -- and fed and aerated.
I'm not sure about your question concerning morphology. I think the answer is that the bacterial composition of any given area of biofilm varies with it's local environment (filter, substrate etc,). I think that's the answer to your other question as well.
As for whether other bacteria compete with the nitrifying bacteria for resources: I'm sure they do. It's one reason why some bottled bacteria (heterotrophic) must be continually re-dosed, and why nitrifying bacteria sometimes have a hard time getting established in that environment. Rpadgett looked closely at this. I'll see if I can find him and direct him here.
While I think these observations are fundamentally correct, there is an ongoing discussion about the minutiae and mechanics of the bacterial relationships.
I've been thinking about this for a while, as well, pop. Thanks for the opportunity to write it down to clarify my thinking.
HELLO Hallyx:
QUESTION
What is cycling?
I know!! I know!!
It’s what bears do at county fairs on the weekend.
We fish keepers create the suitable environment for our nitrifying bacteria. This healthy environment provides the life’s necessities and when the beneficial bacteria thrive all of our beloved water critters will also thrive.
So, why is developing the perfect environment for our bacteria difficult? one possible answer is most folks here at TFK see nitrification as a series of chemical processes devoid of all aspects of life. How did Hallyx put it in the above post “The nitrifying bacteria fix nitrogen by adding oxygen. So you get nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3).” Yes this is correct yet in many ways viewing nitrification only as converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate as a constant where x amount of ammonia will produce x amount of nitrite and x amount of nitrite creates x amount on nitrate leaves out the notion that nitrification is also living identity that have requirements that must be provided.
When beneficial bacteria life’s necessities are not provided and bacteria cease to thrive then we experience all sorts of evils such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spikes that so negatively impact our aquariums.
Understanding nitrification is a living identity that expands or contract depending on the existing situation. One of the requirements for nitrification colonization is the availability of calcium. The bacterium is unable to reproduce without a sufficient availability. One aspect of nitrification is it acidifies the water column. As fellow member Hallyx pointed out above nitrification produces a (+)Hydrogen ion which lower the pH of the water column and to maintain the appropriate pH the carbonate hardness provides (-)hydroxide ion raising the pH. This continual consumption of carbonate is one reason that water changes are necessary when developing a nitrification colony in your aquarium.
Another misunderstood notion that is lost in the conventional prophesized understanding of nitrification as a constant chemical process is respiration. What is respiration? in the most simple explanation: respiration is the process where organisms break down substances to produce energy. All living identies must have some manifestation of respiration. There are three ways that bacteria manifest respiration and gain access to energy that processes ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate.
Nitrifying bacteria preform aerobic respiration which is respiration in the presents of oxygen. During aerobic respiration metabolic process manufacture life sustaining energy by breaking down sugars in the presents of oxygen. This process produces enough energy for ammonia / nitrite conversion and carbon dioxide, water. Leaving one to conclude ammonia / nitrite are not food for the beneficial bacteria but a functional process performed by the bacteria.
Carbon dioxide will lower the pH and the living identity is forced to allocate more energy to life sustaining functions away from ammonia conversion. Again the carbonate hardness saves the day providing continued power of stability in maintaining necessary pH levels for nitrification.
purple possum seyzs:
happy bacteria = happy fish
QUESTION
What is cycling?
I know!! I know!!
It’s what bears do at county fairs on the weekend.
We fish keepers create the suitable environment for our nitrifying bacteria. This healthy environment provides the life’s necessities and when the beneficial bacteria thrive all of our beloved water critters will also thrive.
So, why is developing the perfect environment for our bacteria difficult? one possible answer is most folks here at TFK see nitrification as a series of chemical processes devoid of all aspects of life. How did Hallyx put it in the above post “The nitrifying bacteria fix nitrogen by adding oxygen. So you get nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3).” Yes this is correct yet in many ways viewing nitrification only as converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate as a constant where x amount of ammonia will produce x amount of nitrite and x amount of nitrite creates x amount on nitrate leaves out the notion that nitrification is also living identity that have requirements that must be provided.
When beneficial bacteria life’s necessities are not provided and bacteria cease to thrive then we experience all sorts of evils such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spikes that so negatively impact our aquariums.
Understanding nitrification is a living identity that expands or contract depending on the existing situation. One of the requirements for nitrification colonization is the availability of calcium. The bacterium is unable to reproduce without a sufficient availability. One aspect of nitrification is it acidifies the water column. As fellow member Hallyx pointed out above nitrification produces a (+)Hydrogen ion which lower the pH of the water column and to maintain the appropriate pH the carbonate hardness provides (-)hydroxide ion raising the pH. This continual consumption of carbonate is one reason that water changes are necessary when developing a nitrification colony in your aquarium.
Another misunderstood notion that is lost in the conventional prophesized understanding of nitrification as a constant chemical process is respiration. What is respiration? in the most simple explanation: respiration is the process where organisms break down substances to produce energy. All living identies must have some manifestation of respiration. There are three ways that bacteria manifest respiration and gain access to energy that processes ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate.
Nitrifying bacteria preform aerobic respiration which is respiration in the presents of oxygen. During aerobic respiration metabolic process manufacture life sustaining energy by breaking down sugars in the presents of oxygen. This process produces enough energy for ammonia / nitrite conversion and carbon dioxide, water. Leaving one to conclude ammonia / nitrite are not food for the beneficial bacteria but a functional process performed by the bacteria.
Carbon dioxide will lower the pH and the living identity is forced to allocate more energy to life sustaining functions away from ammonia conversion. Again the carbonate hardness saves the day providing continued power of stability in maintaining necessary pH levels for nitrification.
purple possum seyzs:
happy bacteria = happy fish
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