Tropical Fish Keeping banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi All!

I currently have a 40g freshwater tank containing four Angelfish juveniles/young adults--two veiled Koi and two veiled true Albinos. I use only a 6"x6" sponge filter in the existing tank (no carbon or hang off the back filters.) ETA: I have only those four Angelfish, no other fish or aquatic animals.

The Koi are displaying pairing behavior and I'm starting a 20g tank for them alone.

I'm considering placing the new sponge filter and driftwood in the existing tank for 30 days to develop the bacterial cultures required in the new tank.

Would that process be sufficient to support the Koi when they move to their new tank? Or should I cycle the new tank anyway?

All advice is welcome and greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
I would think that this would be fine. Depending on the bio load in the "new" tank being relatively low. You could also use alittle gravel from your established tank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
That's the technique I attempted the first time using a cultured sponge filter from the breeder but the vast difference in our pH levels (his 8.5, mine an unknown 4.5 due to bad test solution) killed all the bacteria and left me with with unrecognized new tank syndrome. I cycled the tank using $179 worth of fish. Hence I'm a tiny bit leery of moving them at all and want the Koi to make the move with no problems.

Logically it makes sense that it would work but. . ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,201 Posts
Forgot to say - those are some of the nicest angels I've ever seen, so i wouldn't feel bad about paying top dollar for them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Missed that ph issue.
Trust me on this: pH matters a lot! I lost a black lace and a half black to pH. I religiously use Seachem Neutral Regulator now.

The poor breeder had to have been sick of me. I keep a log of all my testing values, changes in the tank, etc. and as the unrecognized new tank syndrome progressed he was as flummoxed as I. As a last resort I took samples of my tap and tank water to the local aquarium shop and discovered the real problem. I could NOT believe it. But the breeder did everything he could from 1,000 miles away to help me.

Forgot to say - those are some of the nicest angels I've ever seen, so i wouldn't feel bad about paying top dollar for them.
:grin2: Thanks jaysee! I decided to give each fish 10 gallons since I intend to grow them into adults and they'll need the space once full grown. The albinos will have 20 gallons each when the Koi are moved. I might get two more albinos as long as hubs doesn't threaten divorce. :wink3:

After researching Angels I have a critical eye for form and was astonished at what passes for Angelfish locally. I showed the owner of the local aquarium store photos of my fish. They only purchase locally bred Angelfish. I think that's why he offered to purchase any if they breed.

I wanted to do a planted 40 gallon tank but I think the full spectrum bulb I have now is causing the Albinos some problems. I posted a question about albinism and fish in another section of the forum but haven't received a response. The breeder said he hasn't had that variety very long and isn't sure whether and/or how albinism affects fish in a planted, high-spectrum tank (long or short term.) I might lower the bulb and see how the albinos' behavior changes, if at all.

Now the new Koi tank can be planted and I intend to do that. Getting ready for more grumbling. . ...

Thanks again!

PS--it's hard to see in a photo but the topmost albino in the second photo is a full pearlscale. (S)he is simply gorgeous! The other albino has a few pearled scales but not many. If those two breed, approximately 3/4ths of the fry will be full pearlscale veiled albinos. That might be interesting!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
PH is a big deal but not for the reason most of us think. Fish from the wild(most of use don't get these fish) can be stressed and could die from changing the PH. But most fish we buy are tank raised and will handle different PH no problem. Having said that you have to keep the PH stable because if it changes it could cause the fish to die.

My guess is what happened is the fish got shocked from the change. Don't feel too bad most people never think about the PH of the breeder online so never ask about it. They get their fish float the bag for 30 mins and move the fish. This works fine if the fish are local but to adjust from 8.5 to 4.5 would have taken weeks of slowly adding local water.


They are great looking fish.

Sorry for the quick reply running out of time tonight. Will be back in the morning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
PH is a big deal but not for the reason most of us think. Fish from the wild(most of use don't get these fish) can be stressed and could die from changing the PH. But most fish we buy are tank raised and will handle different PH no problem. Having said that you have to keep the PH stable because if it changes it could cause the fish to die.

My guess is what happened is the fish got shocked from the change. Don't feel too bad most people never think about the PH of the breeder online so never ask about it. They get their fish float the bag for 30 mins and move the fish. This works fine if the fish are local but to adjust from 8.5 to 4.5 would have taken weeks of slowly adding local water.
Hi Warhawk!

I purchased a cultured sponge filter from the breeder and had it in the tank for a few days before the fish arrived. Based on what I recall from microbiology in college and the experience with the first four fish, the radical change in pH killed off all the bacteria in the cultured sponge and I put the newly arrived fish in what was for all intents and purposes an uncycled tank. Then the pH change caused almost immediate problems but because I thought I had a cultured sponge, new tank syndrome never occurred to me or the breeder. The test solution I was using for pH was bad (not out of date but definitely not giving correct values) and that was the source of all my original problems. I have the utmost respect for pH now!

When I started using Neutral Regulator the two Koi perked right up. The other two (a half-black and a black lace) were too far gone I think, and both died within a couple of weeks.

Oh, and the breeder's recommended process to move fish from the shipping bag to the tank takes a few hours. His process requires moving the shipping water and fish to a bucket or other properly-sized container, adding Prime if necessary, running a drip line from the new tank to the bucket and slowly increasing the rate of drip until the volume in the bucket is 3x the volume of the shipping water. I've never floated a bag before. That sounds a lot easier but I've religiously followed the moving instructions and (after the pH issue was solved) all the fish moved without the first sign of problems.

When I moved the murderous paired pearlscale Koi out of the new tank and into a temporary tank (5g tank water, 5g treated tap water +a product called "seed" since I had only one sponge filter in the existing tank) I thought I could move them straight from the old tank to the temporary tank. That move killed both the fish within 48 hours. I have no idea why, which is why I'm being far more cautious about this new tank.

They are great looking fish.
Thanks! :grin2: As I said earlier I can only have so many Angelfish and I wanted what I wanted.

Sorry for the quick reply running out of time tonight. Will be back in the morning.
No problem and thanks for returning!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
Hi Warhawk!

I purchased a cultured sponge filter from the breeder and had it in the tank for a few days before the fish arrived. Based on what I recall from microbiology in college and the experience with the first four fish, the radical change in pH killed off all the bacteria in the cultured sponge and I put the newly arrived fish in what was for all intents and purposes an uncycled tank. Then the pH change caused almost immediate problems but because I thought I had a cultured sponge, new tank syndrome never occurred to me or the breeder. The test solution I was using for pH was bad (not out of date but definitely not giving correct values) and that was the source of all my original problems. I have the utmost respect for pH now!


Oh, and the breeder's recommended process to move fish from the shipping bag to the tank takes a few hours. His process requires moving the shipping water and fish to a bucket or other properly-sized container, adding Prime if necessary, running a drip line from the new tank to the bucket and slowly increasing the rate of drip until the volume in the bucket is 3x the volume of the shipping water. I've never floated a bag before. That sounds a lot easier but I've religiously followed the moving instructions and (after the pH issue was solved) all the fish moved without the first sign of problems.

The sponge could have died from the PH shock, not a except on on PH but it makes sense to me.


On the Breeders process that does sound like a good way to adjust the fish. I would think for most cases it would be just fine, but the swing from 8.5 to 4.5 is HUGE!! I'm guessing you have learned how PH works but in case others don't know. PH 7.0 is neutral and every time the number goes up it doubles. So a 6.5 PH is twice as acidic as 6.6, then 6.4 is twice as 6.5. So a small change in the numbers is huge swing.

The process the breeder suggested is a better way to adjust fish for sure, most people buy locally and float the bag with fish in the tank for 30-45 mins. That will adjust the fish to the temp of the water and in most cases the water is very close to the same. Then open the bag remove the fish and add them to the tank, don't add the water from the bag to the tank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
The sponge could have died from the PH shock, not a except on on PH but it makes sense to me.


On the Breeders process that does sound like a good way to adjust the fish. I would think for most cases it would be just fine, but the swing from 8.5 to 4.5 is HUGE!! I'm guessing you have learned how PH works but in case others don't know. PH 7.0 is neutral and every time the number goes up it doubles. So a 6.5 PH is twice as acidic as 6.6, then 6.4 is twice as 6.5. So a small change in the numbers is huge swing.

The process the breeder suggested is a better way to adjust fish for sure, most people buy locally and float the bag with fish in the tank for 30-45 mins. That will adjust the fish to the temp of the water and in most cases the water is very close to the same. Then open the bag remove the fish and add them to the tank, don't add the water from the bag to the tank.
Hi!

If I recall correctly pH is a logarithmic function so yeah, the shock was tremendous for both bacteria and fish. Going from 8.5 to my now-pH-neutral 7.0 didn't cause the albinos or pearlscale Koi any problems at all from what I could tell by condition and behavior. The albinos in particular are doing well. The pearlscale Koi died when they tried to kill off the others after pairing and a quick move. Oops.

During a rant hubs suggested suing the testing solution company which is ridiculous, of course. I ought to have known better than to rely on one test type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
If I am understanding all this it would seem that when receiving new fish the water they are shipped in whether local fish store or online should be tested for ph and compare that to the ph in the home tank. If there is a difference they should be drip acclimated before transferring to the tank. Correct?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,201 Posts
I've never bothered testing the LFS water when adding new fish. It's not going to be too far off from what my water is, so a standard acclimation is fine.

One thing to keep in mind about the low pH - at 4.5 ammonia is ammonium and not toxic to the fish. Raising that pH too fast can kill the fish because the ammonium then turns back to ammonia. When I used to have fish shipped I would dose with prime while acclimating to help prevent such a problem. And it did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
If I am understanding all this it would seem that when receiving new fish the water they are shipped in whether local fish store or online should be tested for ph and compare that to the ph in the home tank. If there is a difference they should be drip acclimated before transferring to the tank. Correct?

Like Jaysee said never tested the water from local fish stores.

The larger fish stores normally have their tanks all linked together and their water will be close to what you have at home. Some might adjust the PH to get it closer to 7.0 but don't count on it. If it is a local owned store will be getting water from the same place you do(city water) so it will be just like your water, but you can ask if they do anything special to their water to be safe.

When I get fish from the local stores I acclimate for temperature but nothing else, never been a issue. When I get fish from online people I will ask about their water up front. I did pass on a deal for some cichlid rams because the water they where used to was 6.5 and I didn't want to adjust a tank for that.

I have seen my local water change from 7.5 to 8.2 depending on the weather and what they put in the water. So it is a good idea to check your water a few times a year to know what it is doing. When we have heavy rains or lots of snow melt I cut back on water changes because my PH goes up a lot, normally it is just a week so not a huge deal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
Meant to say my local fish sore is not in town. They are 20-50 miles away depending which store.

That isn't too far I would guess the water should be close. You can ask store about their water and some will let you see them test it. Big chain stores might not be as knowledgeable but will still have the basic info.

I have family in North Carolina and they are all on well water, if my memory is right it is below 7.0ph. That water is the same for miles and all based on the rocks it flows through, I'm in Indiana and the city water comes from the local rivers so it has a higher PH. I have heard that closer to the coast lines the water goes up in PH but I can't prove that.

I would trust any water source with in 75-100 miles to be close to what you have at home. Would still test it to be sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,201 Posts
Meant to say my local fish sore is not in town. They are 20-50 miles away depending which store.


A simple phone call would probably clear that right up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I have family in North Carolina and they are all on well water, if my memory is right it is below 7.0ph. That water is the same for miles and all based on the rocks it flows through, I'm in Indiana and the city water comes from the local rivers so it has a higher PH. I have heard that closer to the coast lines the water goes up in PH but I can't prove that.
Not to be nosy but is your family in western or eastern NC? I ask because I'm in central SC and my well water tests at 4.5. The aquifer is 220 feet down and also running. We're about 100 miles from the coast.

I would trust any water source with in 75-100 miles to be close to what you have at home. Would still test it to be sure.
As long as it's the same water source. Well vs. processed water vary dramatically around here. The city water is just over 7.0 from what I hear. I'd assume a store would have city water. I think moving a store bought fish into my tanks without treating the tank with a neutralizing agent wouldn't be good for the fish.

You know, that might have something to do with my utter failure way back when. Hmmm.......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
If I am understanding all this it would seem that when receiving new fish the water they are shipped in whether local fish store or online should be tested for ph and compare that to the ph in the home tank. If there is a difference they should be drip acclimated before transferring to the tank. Correct?
Well, drip acclimation didn't help my first four with the sudden and dramatic pH change (8.5 to 4.5.) It worked well when my chemically adjusted and buffered pH was 7.0 and the breeder's pH was 8.5, so drip acclimation might have helped in that case.

Each fish I have was shipped from New York state to SC and the drip acclimation is probably recommended for a number of reasons besides pH--they're already stressed from shipping.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
Not to be nosy but is your family in western or eastern NC? I ask because I'm in central SC and my well water tests at 4.5. The aquifer is 220 feet down and also running. We're about 100 miles from the coast.



As long as it's the same water source. Well vs. processed water vary dramatically around here. The city water is just over 7.0 from what I hear. I'd assume a store would have city water. I think moving a store bought fish into my tanks without treating the tank with a neutralizing agent wouldn't be good for the fish.

You know, that might have something to do with my utter failure way back when. Hmmm.......

My family is in in western NC, one hour north of Charlotte. I know a guy that lived in Charleston SC and he raised dwarf cichlids I could be wrong but I think he had city water at 6.5. But I haven't talked to him in a few years so could be remembering wrong.

Some times water doesn't change too much within the 100 miles but other times it will. I'm in the market for some African peacock cichlids and there is a breeder about a hour south/east of me(I'm in Indiana he is in Ohio) his water is pretty close to mine but about 90 mins north/west their water is much higher PH 8.0-8.2. I learned that from a fish club meeting everyone was jealous of my water at 7.5-7.6.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
My family is in in western NC, one hour north of Charlotte. I know a guy that lived in Charleston SC and he raised dwarf cichlids I could be wrong but I think he had city water at 6.5. But I haven't talked to him in a few years so could be remembering wrong.
I've been on the well for 20+ years but my hubs was on the team that designed a new water treatment plant in the city and he says they strive to keep their outgoing water at 7.0. That may be different in other municipalities, however. Charleston's lower processed water pH could be due to the salt in the air getting into the tanks, etc. Just a guess.

Some times water doesn't change too much within the 100 miles but other times it will. I'm in the market for some African peacock cichlids and there is a breeder about a hour south/east of me(I'm in Indiana he is in Ohio) his water is pretty close to mine but about 90 mins north/west their water is much higher PH 8.0-8.2. I learned that from a fish club meeting everyone was jealous of my water at 7.5-7.6.
Heck, I'M jealous of your 7.5-7.6!

I'm learning a lot about how water parameters affect fish, specifically Angelfish. I saw a page that indicated that Angels prefer blackwater tanks, which I'm not about to attempt, but aren't those tanks acidic due to the organic matter? Sometimes I think I should stop reading so much, it can be confusing.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top