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As a person who has a 'low' pH of around 6.5 - which isn't even low to begin with and is in fact highly sort after by multiple Aus aquarists I have met for most FW fish - it does not mean that I have HIGH CO2, quite the opposite if you look at the water agitation and plant mass I have.

HIGH CO2 =/= low pH, however if you notice a rapid fluctuation over the course of a couple hour period, then it may suggest as such.

The OP has sponge filtration, offering plenty of surface agitation... so I don't understand where this came from?

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finding a solution

Take it back a bit to selecting more fish that are suitable for the aquarium!!

So, are you absolutely "go" for Guppies? Or are you just considering it?

My parents 29Deluxe has 7 Delta Guppies, they were 1/2 inch last month. They are coloring up as they grow.. pretty excited about their coloration.. very colorful, like butterfly :serious:


:grin2:



(The formation of Carbonic Acid is an advanced freshwater discussion..)
 

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As a person who has a 'low' pH of around 6.5 - which isn't even low to begin with and is in fact highly sort after by multiple Aus aquarists I have met for most FW fish - it does not mean that I have HIGH CO2, quite the opposite if you look at the water agitation and plant mass I have.

HIGH CO2 =/= low pH, however if you notice a rapid fluctuation over the course of a couple hour period, then it may suggest as such.

The OP has sponge filtration, offering plenty of surface agitation... so I don't understand where this came from?

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The op had 10 neon tetras and 10 orange tetras in a 15g tank. the neons died in days and the remaining fish seem lifeless. ammonia 0 pH 6.5 KH reasonable.


While it could be neon disease, that tells me high co2 and the surface agitation is not lowering co2 enough. Live plants will raise the pH, lower the co2 which in and of itself would allow the neons to thrive. As they do on my tanks with a ph of 8.2+ (api high range test kit) with peat moss to control kH buildup.
People who have added plants in a new tank and a lifeless fish after 3-5 days report the fish recovers in a matter of a few hours an pH responds with high values in a day.
While some species of fish may do very well at a ph of 6.5, I know of no fish that suffer when co2 is lowered through plant action.
That's is where "this" is coming from. LOL


still just my .02
 

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The op had 10 neon tetras and 10 orange tetras in a 15g tank. the neons died in days and the remaining fish seem lifeless. ammonia 0 pH 6.5 KH reasonable.


While it could be neon disease, that tells me high co2 and the surface agitation is not lowering co2 enough. Live plants will raise the pH, lower the co2 which in and of itself would allow the neons to thrive. As they do on my tanks with a ph of 8.2+ (api high range test kit) with peat moss to control kH buildup.
People who have added plants in a new tank and a lifeless fish after 3-5 days report the fish recovers in a matter of a few hours an pH responds with high values in a day.
While some species of fish may do very well at a ph of 6.5, I know of no fish that suffer when co2 is lowered through plant action.
That's is where "this" is coming from. LOL


still just my .02
I've had fish die in days... does that mean I have CO2 problems? (To make it easy, I'll give the answer... No, it was just a bad batch.)

Their water values are fine, given the fish they are keeping.

Neon tetra disease is not caused by CO2, so I really dont understand your point at the start of paragraph 2... its literally due to disease?

Once again, you miss understood the role of live plants. They dont raise the pH, but in some cases they reduce the amount of carbonic acid that occurs which ultimately effects pH. But live plants dont ALWAYS effect pH, heck with my tanks I have noticed on many occasions that the opposite happens - and no, its not really due to excess of CO2, as gasping did not occur.

pH is due to the amount of hydrogen ions in the water, which can come from mineral deposits of where the water is sourced from - some materials leech a high amount of basic materials, like OH- (hydroxide) which binds with (any) free H+ in the water, raising pH. Plants don't really *do* that, or at least buffer the aquarium to a high pH value from 6.5 to 8+... maybe at most a few .2 degree difference from the initial initual water conditions, but nothing as drastic as you mentioned!

People have also added plants to tanks with listless fish and noted that they are still listless, plants don't cure disease and parasites! Nor does it cure 'damaged' stock like having severe internal injuries in store for xy&z.... plants aren't that good ;) .

Again, I get your 0.2 cents, but in this case I do agree with others and that its not due to CO2. Having an airstone really does rule out, since they do add a lot of water movement and surface agitation...

Edit: plus they have live plants.... so? If the water is saturated if CO2 wouldnt the op noticed gasping at the surface or pearling of the plants due to excessive CO2?

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It was my understanding the OP added the plants after the fish died.


Paragraph 2 was (while it may have been neon disease) it also could have been high co2 levels are reflected in the 6.5 pH. didn't say or mean to imply neon disease was caused by high co2. Of course high co2 is an unhealthy environment.


I don't know how to be diplomatic about but you're simply wrong. Plants always affect pH. Raising the ph lights on and lowering pH lights off. That is due to the changing co2 levels. And is why pH has a daily cycle with kH helping to reduce the swing that is still there.


For instance, I once had a new marine tank with cycling problems. (before I learned about macro algaes). Found ph low and added macro algaes. PH responded in hours and fish recovered and tripled in size in a year. The lowest (lights out) pH ~8.0 was much higher then the highest ph before macros ~7.6. The just before lights out pH was 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit).


What happens is the tank becomes a net sink for co2 and source of oxygen to the surrounding area.


Sure the fish would initially be gasping at the surface but in a short time would be on the bottom not moving and breathing heavy.


my .02
 

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If you are running a double sponge with high agitation your co2 should be at 3ppm. It should be at equilibrium through gas exchange. O2 should be no problem for the same reasons.

Your gh is a bit low. In German degrees you are at 3.3 you should be closer to 6-12. Your kh is at 2.2 and should be at 4-8. This one is more important for keeping stable ph. What is your ph out of the tap? How about 24 hrs later? Maybe check these out just for peace of mind.

You could have gotten a bad batch of fish though.. Some pathogens take a long time to show up.

Has your tank temp been steady?

Neons are notoriously delicate. Green neons and cardinals are a lot more hardy.

I would start by testing your ph. Out of tap, then 24 hour after that. Set a cup out on your counter to test later. Then I would see what your aquarium ph is 2 hrs before your lights come on and 2 hrs after they are on. This should help to show if your ph is fluctuating and by how much.
 

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It was my understanding the OP added the plants after the fish died.


Paragraph 2 was (while it may have been neon disease) it also could have been high co2 levels are reflected in the 6.5 pH. didn't say or mean to imply neon disease was caused by high co2. Of course high co2 is an unhealthy environment.


I don't know how to be diplomatic about but you're simply wrong. Plants always affect pH. Raising the ph lights on and lowering pH lights off. That is due to the changing co2 levels. And is why pH has a daily cycle with kH helping to reduce the swing that is still there.


For instance, I once had a new marine tank with cycling problems. (before I learned about macro algaes). Found ph low and added macro algaes. PH responded in hours and fish recovered and tripled in size in a year. The lowest (lights out) pH ~8.0 was much higher then the highest ph before macros ~7.6. The just before lights out pH was 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit).


What happens is the tank becomes a net sink for co2 and source of oxygen to the surrounding area.


Sure the fish would initially be gasping at the surface but in a short time would be on the bottom not moving and breathing heavy.


my .02
Whether you meant it or not, what you wrote stated NTD is due to CO2... I simply read as such ;)

Very diplomatic, I guess I've done very similar regarding your methods to a 'successful aquarium'. What I was trying to get at is that while plants do affect pH, it doesn't really cause a massive swing like you mentioned... I didn't exactly imply it, but I thought you would of insinuated that... Obvi not. But in saying that, having a REASONABLE kH like you mentioned the OP had, the swing should be close to 0.1 or so swing, which is something that only can measure these differences - to spell it out, our liquid test kits can not - would be those pH pens. True they are readily available, but I haven't really met anyone that has them except for hardcore or marine hobbyists... (OP having the reading of 6.5 does suggest its not with a pen, since those .5 readings do commonly indicate a test kit of some sort....) PLUS CO2 levels will not change dramatically (if at all) with SUFFICIENT WATER AGITATION - since I seem to love saying it, I will simply refer to it was SWA... it's honestly hurting my fingers parroting myself. ;)

Which brings it back to the OPs tank, it does have SWA... so moot point, the CO2 would be degassed at night anyway so shouldn't/won't cause a change in pH... regardless of plants or not... hence me saying that plants don't *really* influence pH, since other factors also do play a role......

But what would I know?

Like I mentioned, having plants may cause a small swing in pH but it will not (repeat... WILL NOT) cause the OP water from 6.5 skyrocket up to 8.__ like you suggested before.. Like I SAID, it will be by a couple .1 degrees. Nothing drastic, and most kits will not pick up any differences - especially if you have a good kH for eg or still unfamiliar with liquid testing kits... they confuse everyone at first! ^_^

Having seen fish that have had symptoms of O2 deprivation, they will gasp longterm at the surface... not like you said, it would put all species at a disadvantage since if in the wild it makes a lot more sense to stay were conditions are favourable - the surface, plus passive O2 exchange - then take a few gasps and then sink to the bottom and suffer further CO2 damage.....
*Shrug*

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You experience is different from mine. I have witnessed and measured a ph rise 1/2 to a full poing (6.5-7 or 7 to 8) is a day or less. and is several different systems over the years.


Sure gas exchange will help but IME the effect of plants overrides circulation. Given a certain amount of circulation (and everything else for that matter) a ph of below 7 will rise to 7.5 or higher in a couple of days. KH does reduce the nightly ph drop.


So back to the op, they had a ph low (6.5) and fish dying. One possible reason is the increase in co2 caused by that pH level. Besides lower ph and higher oxygen is a much healthier environment for the fish.


my .02
 

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I can definitely agree with you there bob - your experience is quite different from the rest of us. Shouldn’t be a shocker, considering what your method entails.
 

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I can definitely agree with you there bob - your experience is quite different from the rest of us. Shouldn’t be a shocker, considering what your method entails.

LOL


And most especially true with the beaslbob build for planted tank.


But I have experienced similar effects in marine systems with lotsa circulation.


Still just my .02
 

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Beaslbob-
Your co2 to pH theory assumes that carbonic acid is the onl acid in out tanks.

You post a lovely article by a reputed source but on an unrelated topic then try to convince us that it really is on topic.

Heres an article for you.
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/co2-striking-the-balance

I agree with most of the other advice, but beaslbob, not yours.
Thanks for posting.


article agree with what I have been saying. Initial co2 poisoning results in slow moving fish with later more extreme cases resulting in the gasping at the surface.


Plus low light planted tanks with do well with no co2 addition and present less risk to the fish.


still that's just my .o2
 

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I drop pennies in the parking lot on my back to my car.
 

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I pick them up!

It's a habit with me. I used to pick up change on the way to the store, and I'd have enough by the time I got there to buy a Superman comic and a candy bar!
But, back to 6.5 pH. I don't really have a need for it, because I'm about 7.2 to 7.4 without trying, and my fish are happy. But it is the preferred range for a lot of fish. INCLUDING Neons. "Tetras thrive in mildly acidic water, with a pH of about 5.5 to 6.8."
The point was made that it is important to determine the cause, if possible, before taking corrective action. I can't tell how many times I was *sure* of the cause, and made a change with negative results. It has been enough times that I make every effort to not spin my wheels.
I drop pennies in the parking lot on my back to my car.
 

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It's a habit with me. I used to pick up change on the way to the store, and I'd have enough by the time I got there to buy a Superman comic and a candy bar!
But, back to 6.5 pH. I don't really have a need for it, because I'm about 7.2 to 7.4 without trying, and my fish are happy. But it is the preferred range for a lot of fish. INCLUDING Neons. "Tetras thrive in mildly acidic water, with a pH of about 5.5 to 6.8."
The point was made that it is important to determine the cause, if possible, before taking corrective action. I can't tell how many times I was *sure* of the cause, and made a change with negative results. It has been enough times that I make every effort to not spin my wheels.
And my neons thrive at a ph of over 8.4-8.8.


my .02


there you now have $1.02
 

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And my neons thrive at a ph of over 8.4-8.8.


my .02


there you now have $1.02


Yeah, so you say. Your refusal over the years to ever share any pictures or videos casts a dark cloud of doubt over everything you claim. Unfortunately at this point, were you to post a picture, no one would believe it was yours.

But at least we know why bob thinks 6.5 is low pH.
 

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3+points pH higher than everyone else in the world can maintain this fish? You need to find a more gullible audience.
If acclimatised, I can't see the problem? People have/do keep discus in high pH and they do fine, why wouldn't the humble tetra do otherwise? As long as the fish aren't wild caught, I do believe that they can be acclimatised to different conditions correctly.

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If acclimatised, I can't see the problem? People have/do keep discus in high pH and they do fine, why wouldn't the humble tetra do otherwise? As long as the fish aren't wild caught, I do believe that they can be acclimatised to different conditions correctly.

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Agreed.


As I have stated before I simply cannot understand and have seen no data on why any fish (even neon tetras) would suffer any harm at all in a high ph (8.4-8.8) caused by a low co2 environment and a high o2 for that matter as well. In fact, I maintain it is a very healthful environment and can actually help the fish overcome illnesses. After all the tank is basically the fish equivalent to a human oxygen tent.


my .02
 
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