Another thread got me thinking(not easy to do) Has anyone ever seen a Guppy -Mollie cross? I've heard of Muppies and Gollies but do these really exist? I've heard of an all girl type of molly, amazon mollies Are these real or fiction
Have you seen one?
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Muppies exist, yes. I've seen them, I've had them. Gollies, haven't heard the switch term before. It bugs me about as much as Ligers and Tigons, silliness. lol A mix is a mix and needs one term, but that's just me.
The all female breed of molly I haven not heard of. That doesn't mean they don't exist. There are species of cat that are female only, or at least, MOSTLY female only. Tortoise Shell, torbies(which are tortoise shells mixed with tabbies) and Calico cats...Finding a male is -extremely- rare, so rare that they were once thought to be gender specific breeds of cats. Not so far out there to think fish could be too, or at least as much as calicos and tortoise shells are(I've seen one male calico, yet to find a male tortoise shell, but have seen male torbies).
According to the wiki, the Amazon Molly does in fact exist. But Wiki can be messed with and isn't always factual. =/ This is what the Wiki says on them though: The Amazon molly, Poecilia formosa, is a freshwater fish which reproduces through gynogenesis. This means although females must mate with a male, genetic material from the male is not incorporated into the already diploid egg cells the mother is carrying (except in extraordinary circumstances), resulting in clones of the mother being produced en masse. This characteristic has led to the Amazon molly becoming an all-female species. The common name acknowledges this trait as a reference to the Amazon warriors, a female-run society in Greek mythology. They are native to warm, fresh waters of northeastern Mexico and to the extreme southern parts of the U.S. state of Texas on the Rio Grande and the Nueces River.
In nature, the Amazon molly typically mates with a male from one of four different species, either P. latipinna, P. mexicana, P. latipunctata, or occasionally P. sphenops. One other male that could possibly exist in the Amazon molly's natural range that could induce parthenogenesis in Amazon molly females is the triploid Amazon molly males. These triploid males are very rare in nature and are not necessary in the reproduction of the species, which is why the species is considered to be all female.
The Amazon molly reaches sexual maturity anywhere from one to six months after birth, and typically has a brood (batch of young) between 60 and 100 fry (young) being delivered every 30–40 days. This lends itself to a large potential for population growth as long as host males are present. The wide variability in maturity dates and brood sizes is a result of genetic heritage, varying temperatures, and food availability. They will become sexually mature faster and produce larger broods in warm (approximately 80°F) water that provides an overabundance of food.
The all female breed of molly I haven not heard of. That doesn't mean they don't exist. There are species of cat that are female only, or at least, MOSTLY female only. Tortoise Shell, torbies(which are tortoise shells mixed with tabbies) and Calico cats...Finding a male is -extremely- rare, so rare that they were once thought to be gender specific breeds of cats. Not so far out there to think fish could be too, or at least as much as calicos and tortoise shells are(I've seen one male calico, yet to find a male tortoise shell, but have seen male torbies).
According to the wiki, the Amazon Molly does in fact exist. But Wiki can be messed with and isn't always factual. =/ This is what the Wiki says on them though: The Amazon molly, Poecilia formosa, is a freshwater fish which reproduces through gynogenesis. This means although females must mate with a male, genetic material from the male is not incorporated into the already diploid egg cells the mother is carrying (except in extraordinary circumstances), resulting in clones of the mother being produced en masse. This characteristic has led to the Amazon molly becoming an all-female species. The common name acknowledges this trait as a reference to the Amazon warriors, a female-run society in Greek mythology. They are native to warm, fresh waters of northeastern Mexico and to the extreme southern parts of the U.S. state of Texas on the Rio Grande and the Nueces River.
In nature, the Amazon molly typically mates with a male from one of four different species, either P. latipinna, P. mexicana, P. latipunctata, or occasionally P. sphenops. One other male that could possibly exist in the Amazon molly's natural range that could induce parthenogenesis in Amazon molly females is the triploid Amazon molly males. These triploid males are very rare in nature and are not necessary in the reproduction of the species, which is why the species is considered to be all female.
The Amazon molly reaches sexual maturity anywhere from one to six months after birth, and typically has a brood (batch of young) between 60 and 100 fry (young) being delivered every 30–40 days. This lends itself to a large potential for population growth as long as host males are present. The wide variability in maturity dates and brood sizes is a result of genetic heritage, varying temperatures, and food availability. They will become sexually mature faster and produce larger broods in warm (approximately 80°F) water that provides an overabundance of food.
Joined
·
840 Posts
Found this photo of muppy online. Its not my fish or my photo, just thought the forum might be interested to see one.
Attachments
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Actually that looks like a Limia vittata, not a muppy. The photo I'm popping up for you is of a Cubam Limia, or Limia Vittata. Not a muppy, normal wild little fishy.
It's true, most don't come out healthy either. Some have before. I know someone who bred four generations of them as proof it could be done, they did breed and stayed healthy...but this is not the case for all of them. I have a little project going myself on muppies and platy/swordtail hybrids. So far i haven't had any issues, if I hit any nasty snags I'll no longer do that. It was an odd, and I'll admit, irresponsible project of mine. ^^; I have a red MM platy/swordtail now, looks like a longer framed platy, who is healthy, active, breeding and bright. But again, that's not true for all hybrids, some just come out sickly or damaged inside in some way.
Here's a video with some muppies for you guys. I can see why some would mistake a limia for one, they can sometimes come out similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5qFMZek-1Y
Attachments
Joined
·
840 Posts
Good eye sylver the two fish are nearly identicle. It was labled as a muppy but ithink your right. The tailfins are a bit different but...
I'm not sure why Wikipedia is unreliable as a source, but some random video by some random poster on Youtube is better.
Do guppies and mollies hybridize? Well the Innes books claimed they did rarely and the results were always sterile. I'm really not convinced of all the people that say they have them though. I'm more inclined to believe their females were storing sperm.
As to Xiphophorus hyrbids, well those happen all the time. Even in nature you have what were once considered valid species in X. roseni and X. kosszanderi that are now know to be naturally occurring hybrids. Breeding platies and swordtails together is hardly irresponsible and not something that needs worried about as far as polluting other gene pools by selling them. Those species have been crossed since the 1920s and the average aquarium fish is not pure. The only concern with crossing them is melanoma XFins
Likewise the average molly is not pure. Guppy X Endler crosses are not a big deal since there are already plenty of strains that are Class K. If they are a concern, then why aren't all the Class P's that are sold as Class N's without being able to trace them all the way back to the wild?
Do guppies and mollies hybridize? Well the Innes books claimed they did rarely and the results were always sterile. I'm really not convinced of all the people that say they have them though. I'm more inclined to believe their females were storing sperm.
As to Xiphophorus hyrbids, well those happen all the time. Even in nature you have what were once considered valid species in X. roseni and X. kosszanderi that are now know to be naturally occurring hybrids. Breeding platies and swordtails together is hardly irresponsible and not something that needs worried about as far as polluting other gene pools by selling them. Those species have been crossed since the 1920s and the average aquarium fish is not pure. The only concern with crossing them is melanoma XFins
Likewise the average molly is not pure. Guppy X Endler crosses are not a big deal since there are already plenty of strains that are Class K. If they are a concern, then why aren't all the Class P's that are sold as Class N's without being able to trace them all the way back to the wild?
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Only so much people can do with proof unless they're going to drag everyone there to bear witness to them being born, raised and kept away from boys(not too hard since even before they get color or a penis males are kinda obvious after a couple weeks with their shapes, usually...), bred and all that. However you are correct about it. I mean look at the creepy hoax stuff they have on there too.
Problem with the wiki is: Anyone can change the info around. Heck, one of my friends did a wiki page on a friend in a chat that was as much bull as you could possibly think of. lol
Internet...it's hard to find valid sources for some things, especially the raresies. It would be lovely if there was a lot more fact on here though. Especially when people are trying to learn.
@ rsskylight04 There are a few types of Limias...however, now that I take a good look at that one, yours does look a lot more guppy than limia. =o I wonder....I don't think it's a hybrid, but it's sure possible. Or perhaps guppies and limia can interbreed? lol I know nothing about that one, just that they're both livebearers, but not how closely they may or may not be related.
Have you seen the speckled mosquito fish? They also look a bit like your photo. http://aquatom.chez-alice.fr/images...ros_caudimaculatus_reticulatus_femelle_01.JPG
And my video looks like mollies with colorful tails, if they're not muppies, I'd certainly like to know what they actually are. Pure mollies with colors like that without the risk of genetic defects, except from the normal accidental or intentional inbreeding... me want. :3
Wikipedia is what it is, however I've found the science parts to be very on point when it comes to information and also pretty up to date when it comes to thing like nomenclature changes. The sources are there to be checked.
Poecilia systemics are confusing to say the least. Some researcher split off genera, others include subgenera. It's in need of a revision. Phylogenic tests have shown Acanthophacelus (guppy subgenera) and Micropoecilia (genera or subgenera depending) to be sister taxon to Mollienesia, Limia, and Pamphorichthys. So mollies are more closely related to Limia than they are to guppies.
I honestly do not buy that video. You're telling me that crossbreeding species would result in homogeneous fish after one generation that differ only in the color of the unpaired fins. You're mixing genes so to me it is more likely that some would take more after one parent over the other. Instead you have identical fish. It's not that easy to fix a type.
Poecilia systemics are confusing to say the least. Some researcher split off genera, others include subgenera. It's in need of a revision. Phylogenic tests have shown Acanthophacelus (guppy subgenera) and Micropoecilia (genera or subgenera depending) to be sister taxon to Mollienesia, Limia, and Pamphorichthys. So mollies are more closely related to Limia than they are to guppies.
I honestly do not buy that video. You're telling me that crossbreeding species would result in homogeneous fish after one generation that differ only in the color of the unpaired fins. You're mixing genes so to me it is more likely that some would take more after one parent over the other. Instead you have identical fish. It's not that easy to fix a type.
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
I'm not telling you anything except that it's hard to find such proof with full fact online. The video was simply an example like my wiki quotes. =) I quite like the wiki myself, but several things must be checked or re-examined since users do update randomness or what they think personally but do not know for fact.
I wish I could give a full answer, and said specifically that I could not since it is hard to find such online, or even real photos, but I do not have any that I know for sure. You gave a tidbit from World Records that is like full fact, therefor proving the possibility if it though.
All of my current babies may or may not be since they DO hold sperm and can do so for up to a year, but I did have a female living with only other females and male guppies for six months, so I am hopeful but never know(she pops monthly and has for more than a year even without any male mollies being around for for half of that time). But if I get any from the ones not with males that I breed, I'll be sure to post some photos. lol I have mine living together in my 55 gallon tank...mollies and guppies that is. That means nothing, but currently I am intending to take a few of my babies that were just born and grow them elsewhere away from males(I've gotten pretty good at telling males apart early before they get in boy parts, but I'll have to be very watchful and wont neglect that info if I miss any), and see if I can crossbreed them, and see if they, or if any, come out healthy and what they'd look like. I had some pretty pale gold babies born last night that were creamsicle/silver lyretail mixes with whoever day was(I assume either one of my other of the same mix or my only other male which is a black molly with gold fins), I figure they'd be interesting candidates. If I succeed as planned, perhaps I can get some final proof video for you guys.
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
It just came to my attention that I was sounding confrontational and I apologize, I was not intending to. I like the info that was given and can agree, just wanted to add my own input on them. ^_^ I'm as interested in the stuff as a lot of people are.
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Nah, but it's hard to tell in writing, I just wanted to make sure people knew I wasn't trying to go for any fighting just in case, sometimes people think I'm arguing with them when I'm simply curious, and I imagine it's the same for others too. lol
So does anyone know of any photos or videos of hybrids they know for a fact are real? I would like to see some that have facts behind them because I know they exist, but because of how rare it is are hard to find. :3 I've had mollies and guppies together for quite a while, but only recently did some of my males take interest in the female mollies, and those were ones I raised together with other molly fry from birth pretty much. Perhaps that's a factor in there. The others don't pay much attention to them nor vice-verca...though I DID have a male that loved everyone, didn't matter what it was, guppy, molly, gourami, corydora....though I have seen a few others chase gouramis on occasion THAT male was after everyone and everything, I even saw him trying to poke a plant. xD He was weird.
Also, if those fish in the video aren't muppies, any idea what they really are? They sure looked like they had guppy in them just from the colors on the tails, but were mollies otherwise. And if they're not hybrids, or are of some form, I'd like to know. They look pretty good for big males, and those colors are appealing. I see why people try. I'm trying it for that outcome, but health is so hard to...well, guess at. Especially since guppies are more prone than most to have disabilities already, like curved spines and the like. I've never had mollies come out with issues, but both with platies and guppies(much rarer on platies) I've had one or two every so often get a messed up back or tail. Interbreeding them, if it succeeds, would surely up those chances.
It'd be nice if we could find jpepe1 and others interested some real photos and/or videos. =)
So does anyone know of any photos or videos of hybrids they know for a fact are real? I would like to see some that have facts behind them because I know they exist, but because of how rare it is are hard to find. :3 I've had mollies and guppies together for quite a while, but only recently did some of my males take interest in the female mollies, and those were ones I raised together with other molly fry from birth pretty much. Perhaps that's a factor in there. The others don't pay much attention to them nor vice-verca...though I DID have a male that loved everyone, didn't matter what it was, guppy, molly, gourami, corydora....though I have seen a few others chase gouramis on occasion THAT male was after everyone and everything, I even saw him trying to poke a plant. xD He was weird.
Also, if those fish in the video aren't muppies, any idea what they really are? They sure looked like they had guppy in them just from the colors on the tails, but were mollies otherwise. And if they're not hybrids, or are of some form, I'd like to know. They look pretty good for big males, and those colors are appealing. I see why people try. I'm trying it for that outcome, but health is so hard to...well, guess at. Especially since guppies are more prone than most to have disabilities already, like curved spines and the like. I've never had mollies come out with issues, but both with platies and guppies(much rarer on platies) I've had one or two every so often get a messed up back or tail. Interbreeding them, if it succeeds, would surely up those chances.
It'd be nice if we could find jpepe1 and others interested some real photos and/or videos. =)
Thanks everyone there is a lot of info here.Just my thought ,the fish in post 5 seems to have a bit of a bent spine between the dorsal fin and tail,that is something I wouldn't expect to see in a Limia vittata.Wouldn't that be more common in a guppy x mollie cross?
Joined
·
242 Posts
I did a little googling and found these excerpts:
"Yes! I have pics! taken today with the new 'fish' setting i found on my camera! let me know what you think, beacuse i am so sure she's half half, ive never had her mother (a molly) in with any male mollies, only guppies. im sure of it. her name is baby, (a name that stuck) she is about, well, nearly a year now i think x
WOW i have always pondered about my cross fish, but i searched google for details and found this, is this TRUE??!! if so, wow!!! i neve knew it! maybe this is what happened??? bizarre eh?
;
'Female mollies have the amazing ability to become pregnant without a male molly.
All in takes is stimulation by a male fish of any other similar species like guppies, swordtails or platties. The male is not the father of the fry and the babies are not cross-breeds. Penetration by the male simply serves to stimulate the female into producing young that are effectively clones of their mother.
This process is called parthenogenesis and is found in many insects and some frogs as well as mollies."
"A mollie can store sperm from a male for up to 5 sets of fry. So don't think she is done having little ones here for a while. Guppies and mollies both are livebearers and classified under the same family Poeciliidae (containing more than 300 species of fish). While there are possiablities of cross breeding it isn't likely and those fish that are crossed are known as mules, since they rarely live to adulthood and are incapable of reproducing. "
"I disagree, mollies and guppies are different species and do not produce offspring. I kept fish for 40+ years and never had those two cross breed, even though they were kept together. It would be like trying to breed chickens with ducks. Doesn't work."
"Mollies and Guppies are both Poecilia. I'm assuming the above posters know nothing about the subject or otherwise would have refrained from making those comments. Yes, you can cross the two species. If you cross a male molly with a female guppy you will kill your guppy. If you cross a female molly with a male guppy you MIGHT get fry and some MIGHT survive and they MIGHT not have the genetic defects common in such a cross but you won't EVER be able to produce viable offspring from the crosses themselves as they are essentially mules, and those that have been successfully bred have never survived to produce a viable breeding population which is why you don't see Gollies in the stores everywhere. They come out deformed and have a lot of genetic problems.
If you care about your fish not harassing each other do yourself a favor and either start a separate tank for the Mollies, or just get rid of them and concentrate on Guppies, (or vice versa).
If you can't do that, at the very least get a breeding net/ tank which floats in the main tank and keeps the mom fish separate from the rest of the fish.
Either way DON'T add any more fish until your tank is cycled!
Here is a picture of a Gollie."
![]()
"Yes! I have pics! taken today with the new 'fish' setting i found on my camera! let me know what you think, beacuse i am so sure she's half half, ive never had her mother (a molly) in with any male mollies, only guppies. im sure of it. her name is baby, (a name that stuck) she is about, well, nearly a year now i think x
WOW i have always pondered about my cross fish, but i searched google for details and found this, is this TRUE??!! if so, wow!!! i neve knew it! maybe this is what happened??? bizarre eh?
;
'Female mollies have the amazing ability to become pregnant without a male molly.
All in takes is stimulation by a male fish of any other similar species like guppies, swordtails or platties. The male is not the father of the fry and the babies are not cross-breeds. Penetration by the male simply serves to stimulate the female into producing young that are effectively clones of their mother.
This process is called parthenogenesis and is found in many insects and some frogs as well as mollies."
"A mollie can store sperm from a male for up to 5 sets of fry. So don't think she is done having little ones here for a while. Guppies and mollies both are livebearers and classified under the same family Poeciliidae (containing more than 300 species of fish). While there are possiablities of cross breeding it isn't likely and those fish that are crossed are known as mules, since they rarely live to adulthood and are incapable of reproducing. "
"I disagree, mollies and guppies are different species and do not produce offspring. I kept fish for 40+ years and never had those two cross breed, even though they were kept together. It would be like trying to breed chickens with ducks. Doesn't work."
"Mollies and Guppies are both Poecilia. I'm assuming the above posters know nothing about the subject or otherwise would have refrained from making those comments. Yes, you can cross the two species. If you cross a male molly with a female guppy you will kill your guppy. If you cross a female molly with a male guppy you MIGHT get fry and some MIGHT survive and they MIGHT not have the genetic defects common in such a cross but you won't EVER be able to produce viable offspring from the crosses themselves as they are essentially mules, and those that have been successfully bred have never survived to produce a viable breeding population which is why you don't see Gollies in the stores everywhere. They come out deformed and have a lot of genetic problems.
If you care about your fish not harassing each other do yourself a favor and either start a separate tank for the Mollies, or just get rid of them and concentrate on Guppies, (or vice versa).
If you can't do that, at the very least get a breeding net/ tank which floats in the main tank and keeps the mom fish separate from the rest of the fish.
Either way DON'T add any more fish until your tank is cycled!
Here is a picture of a Gollie."
I have a number of virgin female mollies and it would be not hard to get male guppies.It would be an interesting project ,to a point.I'm constantly ranting against the ethical existence of balloon mollies and I'd be uncomfortable trying this.Even if you got healthy ,viable young the only resposible thing to do would be to destroy them as to protect the genetic integrity of both species;even though domestic mollies are considered to be crosses themselves.I'm thinking this one may be best left on a chalkboard to debate and not attempted.
Joined
·
840 Posts
Those fish in post#16 are awesome.
Man has produced some pretty extreme dog and cat breeds as well. Also pigs, cattle, chickens, crop plants... I'm not sure which side I'm on though, I wouldn't be too comfy crossing species, but I love the results that appear in post #16... also my cats are not "pure" breeds so...
Man has produced some pretty extreme dog and cat breeds as well. Also pigs, cattle, chickens, crop plants... I'm not sure which side I'm on though, I wouldn't be too comfy crossing species, but I love the results that appear in post #16... also my cats are not "pure" breeds so...
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
