filteration, and waterchanges for discus

Welcome to Tropical Fish Keeping forum.:-D

One of our members, 1077, has discus, so he may see this thread at some point. I can't recall others at the moment. I've been keeping soft water freshwater fish, and mostly wild caught at that, for well over 20 years but still haven't ventured into discus.

I would point you to our profile, we have both primary discus species:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/cichlid-species/symphysodon-discus-189177/

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/cichlid-species/symphysodon-aequifasciatus-188601/

You will find some good info on the tank aquascape. You really have two choices, planted or biotope. Remember that plants will do a much better job of keeping the water clean, with much less expense and bother. I am one who is not a fan of over-filtration, and with discus you do not want strong currents.

As for water changes, Jack Wattley recommends twice a week minimum, but this is without plants. In a planted tank I would go with once a week, same as I do with all my tanks, changing half the tank.

Byron.

I don't have discuss but I will comment that any required filtration/purification is relative to the frequency/volume of water changes. That is to say, if one will do 50% water changes once or twice a week, (advanced) filtration is almost unnecessary. It comes down to what is required to keep the water pure enough to maintain the health of the stock.

I think your plan to use an FX5 as well as a sump with mud and matrix etc. in a 90g is over the top.

Plants can be a good thing, but I also think today's science and filtration products can also do the job well. In my tank I found that even with floating plants, I had to add fertilizer or the plants would wane. If the objective is to purify water, why add impurities for the plants?

In addition to massive water changes, I've read that many discuss breeders use no substrate to keep water cleaner.

[Pondering] I often wondered that if discuss were so very sensitive to fresh/pure water, why do massive water changes several times a week? It seems to me that rigging a trickle system with an overflow/drain would make much more sense so that fresh water was introduced continuously. With such a system, water circulation would be important but filtration would not.

Sorry for the ramble with not much help. Welcome to TFK!
Keep us posted on your progress.

AD

mrmagic2713 said:

yes the filtration is over the top, but i guess redundancy/backup can be a good thing

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I never agree with this. Excess filtration, or over-filtration, can be very detrimental. There is no "back-up" method that works if it is running continually.

Water filtration is finite, with respect to the nitrification aspect. Once an aquarium is established, the nitrifying bacteria/archaea will exist in the system at sufficient levels to handle the ammonia being produced. An increase in ammonia can be easily handled because the archaea multiply accordingly. Obviously a very huge increase occurring suddenly can overwhelm the system. But no over-filtration can handle this anyway. And filtration should always be based upon the fish needs. Some fish need more water movement so a faster filter achieves this; some (like discus) do not, so the less water movement (within reason) the better for their health. All else being equal.

To the issue of RO, as Mikaila and AD have said, we need to know your water parameters out of the tap. Adjusting water parameters is not always simple, or inexpensive. But it may not be necessary. Many maintain healthy discus in moderately hard water; they may never spawn, but they may still be healthy. Stability is much more important, for the most part. And as Mikaila rightly said, the more water changes, the more stability in a system. The appropriate level of filtration and live plants greatly increase the likelihood of maintaining stability.

You can ascertain the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) from your water supply people who may have a website; the pH might be there too, though a pH test kit is a good investment for an y fish tank owner.

Byron.

mrmagic2713 said:

Point well taken Byron. Now the constant introduction of new and fresh water via consistent water changes, has proven to be the cornerstone of good fish husbandry for discus in particular, and all other fish in general. That being said, the fluval fx5 provides adequate mechanical, as well as biological filteration. But in an unplanted tank, wouldn't a planted refugium/sump help with nitrates? ( something that the fluval alone cannot do? So in the event that you "miss" a scheduled water change, the fudge would provide a bit of redundancy from nitrate build up. So in this case would that still in effect be considered over filtration, or more an alternative method to cover as many bases as possible? Also regarding the hardness of the water and such, what do you consider to be the MOST ACCURATE testing kit on the market? Thanks in advance!

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Last question first, I use the API liquid tests, as many here do. I am told the Sera is perhaps better, but more expensive. I have never had issues with the API. Others may be as good, but cost wise they are not cheaper so go with API.

If missing a water change causes a significant rise in nitrates, something is wrong. The system should be better balanced to handle this, up to a point. I never miss the weekly changes on my tanks, except perhaps by a day or two at most, which only occurs if I am incapacitated, and that is not often fortunately.

I've never used refugium/sumps, nor do I know much about them. I always have live plants in my tanks. Let's talk about an aquascape for discus for a moment.

I would always have a substrate. First, the fish expect it (a glass floor is reflective and can stress out any fish, this is not at all natural). Second, there is a complex host of bacteria (beyond nitrifying) that live (or should) in the substrate, further helping with keeping the water chemistry stable.

You could have a planted tank. This is simple, straight-forward, and less expensive than complicated filters. A good canister rated to the tank size would suffice with this. This is how I run my tanks, and I would readily add discus to a couple of them as they are setup now, if I decided to have discus. And I wouldn't change my routine of weekly water changes (half the tank). Here is a link to a thread from a year ago, with a photo of Geomancer's 125g tank and one of my Amazon tanks, both of which would be good for discus:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/125-gallon-densely-planted-discus-aquarium-123275/


Another option is more of a biotope setup. Sand, chunks of wood and branches, but no lower plants. But a thick layer of floating plants. The discus would be in heaven, as they do not like bright overhead light, they expect cover above them, and and the floating plants remove a lot of nutrients including ammonia from the water. Here's a photo I found online of a typical Amazonian aquascape, and this would be ideal. I would have more floating plants, but they will fill in (Amazon Frogbit is shown in this photo].

Now that biotope setup sounds VERY INTRIGUING! First off all I CONCUR that there should be some form of substrate in the tank. Discus in the wild do not see a glass bottom on the floor of the river lol! Secondly, SAND in my experience is MUCH easier to keep clean than gravel, and IMHO LOOKS WAYYYYY BETTER AS WELL! Thirdly I must also concur about the nitrifying effects of the sand bed. Also I have looked at a few pics of biotop themes and the appear SIMPLE BUT ELEGANT, and they don't seem to require much more than the standard aquarium maintaince, last but not least FLOATING PLANTS ARE AN EXCELLENT IDEA! I am running t5 lighting, which I KNOW would indeed be too bright for the fish, so with the floating plants, I have BOTH a positive biological effect, as well as THE PROPER SHADING COMFORT FOR THE FISH! Last but not least, a 50 percent weekly water change is DOABLE for me. I have read that the key is to get the discus at a more mature stage, as the smaller and younger ones need double to triple the amount of weekly water changes during their growth period. But with a larger discus, and a once per week 50 percent water change,. the biotope, seems to be the way to go!
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