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Discussion Starter #1
Hi. I'm new to this forum, but my husband and I desperately need help.

We have two full grown angel fish in a 38 gal aquarium (along with seven serpae tetras, two chinese algae eaters, and a white cloud minnow). We moved all of the fish from their original 20 gal and 5 gal into the 38 gal approx. three weeks ago. Before we moved them, the black marble angel (Acute) was a little aggressive, but we hoped that moving them to a larger tank would help. Unfortunately, the aggression has just gotten worse. He bullies the other angel fish (Obtuse), including chasing him into a corner and ramming into him. I haven't seen any wounds on Obtuse yet, but I'm afraid that it's only a matter of time.

We tried taking Acute out, rearranging the tank (including adding more plants for hiding places) and then putting him back in hoping that he would think that it was "new" tank, but within five minutes he was beating up on Obtuse again.

At this point, we're not sure what else to do. I've read that getting another angelfish might help, but all of the angelfish I've found around this area are too tiny and would become fish food. I also worry that it would just add to the problem.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
 

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angels tend to get agressive when theres only 2 one or 3+ arnt nearly as agressive the main reason y it may be agressive is they may be starting to mate
 

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hi
the problem you faced is about some reasons:

1- they are adults and ready to spawn.

or
2- they have the same sex ( I think both of them are male)

3- there are not enough rooms for them.

4- the place you have made for them has a top speed water movements in some places.

the first sulotion I offer is that buy about 4 to 8 more angels

( 6 is a good chanse to make 2 or 3 pairs.)

the second slow down the water movements.
or
make a special place for them to breed
 

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the first sulotion I offer is that buy about 4 to 8 more angels

( 6 is a good chanse to make 2 or 3 pairs.)
It's true that they are less agressive in groups however in a 38g tank, I wouldn't recommend any more angelfish. Even another 2 would make it very overcrowded and they get very large fully grown.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Arash said:
hi
the problem you faced is about some reasons:

1- they are adults and ready to spawn.
I thought that was the problem at first, but the aggression has escalated and changed since then.

Arash said:
2- they have the same sex ( I think both of them are male)
That's probably it, but what would be a solution?

Arash said:
3- there are not enough rooms for them.
They seemed okay in 20 gallons - the aggression has gotten worse since we moved them to a larger tank.

Arash said:
4- the place you have made for them has a top speed water movements in some places.
There isn't any fast current in that tank.


juliewiegand said:
It's true that they are less agressive in groups however in a 38g tank, I wouldn't recommend any more angelfish. Even another 2 would make it very overcrowded and they get very large fully grown.
What about one more angel? I've read that angels need 10 gallons each at full grown. Both are already full grown, but I wouldn't want to put more than three total.

If I was to do that, I can only find very tiny nickel-sized ones at the LPS. Would a new one even have a chance (given enough hiding places and a back up emergency tank if things went badly)?
 

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JWH said:
What about one more angel? I've read that angels need 10 gallons each at full grown. Both are already full grown, but I wouldn't want to put more than three total.
Are you sure they are grown? This word implies angels whose bodies are 6" to 8" from the bottom of their body to the top of their body.

I have not posted as I was hoping that their aggressive behavior would cease once your angels became accustomed to their new environment but as they have not I have "been there and done that".

Please note that I have 7 angels.

Since they have gotten older (approximately 3" to 5") I observed minor and infrequent hostile encounters (due to what I believe was establishing the "pecking order").

In a previous post current was mentioned. Approximately a week after I changed the current patterns in my tank "all kinds of commotion commenced". The angels were fighting with each other and harassing the other fish in my community tank unmercifully.

I
1) changed the current patterns again (although not back to the original patterns) and
2) began feeding in minor quantities every couple of hours while the lights were on.

Within several days the hostilities had ceased.

TR
 

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Discussion Starter #7
jones57742 said:
1) changed the current patterns again (although not back to the original patterns) and
2) began feeding in minor quantities every couple of hours while the lights were on.
The only current is made by the filter. We can try adding some bubblers.

We feed them twice a day. Interestingly, the only time they aren't aggressive is during feeding time.

They are certainly full grown.

There is only one angelfish that is the problem (not them picking on each other): he picks on the other angel and occasionally on the smaller tetras (but much less often). The other angel isn't aggressive at all - he just huddles in a corner trying not to be noticed.
 

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There is only one angelfish that is the problem (not them picking on each other): he picks on the other angel and occasionally on the smaller tetras (but much less often). The other angel isn't aggressive at all - he just huddles in a corner trying not to be noticed.
I've never kept angels but I'm pretty sure that in a pair, this would be the case. A pecking order is established and a dominant fish is "elected". In a group, the dominant fish will bully all the others a little bit, hence none of them becoming stressed as this is natural group behaviour and each are only receiving a small amount of the bullying, but in a pair, the dominant fish can only bully the other one, and so the other becomes much more strssed and will normally hide, or cower away.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
juliewiegand said:
I've never kept angels but I'm pretty sure that in a pair, this would be the case. A pecking order is established and a dominant fish is "elected". In a group, the dominant fish will bully all the others a little bit, hence none of them becoming stressed as this is natural group behaviour and each are only receiving a small amount of the bullying, but in a pair, the dominant fish can only bully the other one, and so the other becomes much more strssed and will normally hide, or cower away.
If that's the case, would it be possible to add another angel, even if was smaller and took a little while to grow? That way it would spread out the stress a little more evenly. I don't have a problem with adding another angel if there's room and the new one wouldn't become a snack.
 

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JWH said:
If that's the case, would it be possible to add another angel, even if was smaller and took a little while to grow? That way it would spread out the stress a little more evenly. I don't have a problem with adding another angel if there's room and the new one wouldn't become a snack.
No. The smallest will likely become a runt in time and will be bullied to death in no time. Note that it will even be considered as an intruder to your tank as well so it'll take a few considerable beatings to kill it.
 

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Blue said:
JWH said:
If that's the case, would it be possible to add another angel, even if was smaller and took a little while to grow? That way it would spread out the stress a little more evenly. I don't have a problem with adding another angel if there's room and the new one wouldn't become a snack.
No. The smallest will likely become a runt in time and will be bullied to death in no time. Note that it will even be considered as an intruder to your tank as well so it'll take a few considerable beatings to kill it.
please remember I have a breeding tank with less than 20 gallons
and in that tank I have 3 pairs

there is no aggressions except the spawning time.

I say again you need more fishes.
but with smaller fishes you will have another problems the big aggressive one may kill them.
I agree with our friends said change the current patterns again (although not back to the original patterns)
it is a good trick
and i when I said you need more rooms :

you need more hiding places for the weaker one
the more powerfully one is preparing a new place for spawning but when there is no opposite sex there he or she ( and I think it is he because if it was a she the spawning organ comes out and it is like a pipe and it is not pointed.) and there is no aggression.
so i recommend buy at list 4 more fishes from a same tank ( to make chance for opposite sex)
OR
change the tank pattern and make more rooms with big plants or rocks.
 

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Blue said:
JWH said:
If that's the case, would it be possible to add another angel, even if was smaller and took a little while to grow? That way it would spread out the stress a little more evenly. I don't have a problem with adding another angel if there's room and the new one wouldn't become a snack.
No. The smallest will likely become a runt in time and will be bullied to death in no time. Note that it will even be considered as an intruder to your tank as well so it'll take a few considerable beatings to kill it.
please remember I have a breeding tank with less than 20 gallons
and in that tank I have 3 pairs

there is no aggressions except the spawning time.

I say again you need more fishes.
but with smaller fishes you will have another problems the big aggressive one may kill them.
I agree with our friends said change the current patterns again (although not back to the original patterns)
it is a good trick
and i when I said you need more rooms :

you need more hiding places for the weaker one
the more powerfully one is preparing a new place for spawning but when there is no opposite sex there he or she ( and I think it is he because if it was a she the spawning organ comes out and it is like a pipe and it is not pointed.) and there is no aggression.
so i recommend buy at list 4 more fishes from a same tank ( to make chance for opposite sex)
OR
change the tank pattern and make more rooms with big plants or rocks.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Arash said:
I agree with our friends said change the current patterns again (although not back to the original patterns)
Arash said:
you need more hiding places for the weaker one
We're going to pick up some bubblers tonight. I added many more hiding places before posting to this forum, so there should be plenty. I think that was part of the problem before.

Arash said:
I say again you need more fishes.
but with smaller fishes you will have another problems the big aggressive one may kill them.
I'm also going to see if I can find a larger angelfish tonight. Our LPS gets regular shipments, and sometimes they get larger fish. Also, the manager told us that occasionally they have people surrender their fish if they get too big (a problem with angels - most people just aren't informed). There are a few stores within a 20 mile radius, so we might be in for a bit of a drive (we've done it before, anyway). We'll have a back-up tank set up for the new arrival if things turn out badly.
 

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aggressive angel fish

Hi JWH, and welcome.
I have found that much of what one reads from books appears to be based on the authors experience. If you read one or two books then the information is based upon one or two individuals. This is also based on general knowledge such as what is known to be the norm. The forums also produce the experience of individuals. The advantage of forums is you glean many more individual experiences concerning the same topics.
I suggest you read as many posts from forums as possible to gain as much knowledge from others experiences concerning any particular problem.
I mention this because I am fairly new to keeping discus. I have a 28 gal. tank and wanted to keep several discus (first time) with 2 angels, with some cardinals and cleaning specimens. I read much conflicting information, both from books and forums. Generally the consensus was mixed. Information told me it was not wise to mix angels with discus. other sources told me it was a myth that angels cannot live together peacefully with discus. Their parameters are very similar, so I thought i would keep what i wanted. I had trouble with the discus! some were bullying the others. This I read was normal due to territorial behaviour. The angels ( about 2") seemed peaceful and uninterested in the other occupants, until they grew to about 3" or so, not counting finnage. They then started to attack the discus to the extent the latter hid away all the time! The were also attacking themselves quite aggressively. I think they were both females by the large abdomen area that developed on both of them. I had to make a decision! get rid of the angels or discus. I have more discus than angels, and although I love both, I decided to take the angels back.
My experience has taught me that you should not forget angels are ciclids! As such they may display their recognised temperament, namely aggression.
Many years ago I kept several tanks, one was a totally community tank with a couple of angels. I had no problems with the angels whatsoever. They were peaceful. I agree with the info you have recieved here about several angels being better than one or two only. As it is difficult to know what the sex of angels is when purchased, whether aggression is going to be due to particular sexes is a gamble anyway. Also the individual temperament of individual fish also varies.
My personal view on your situation is that you will more than likely continue with some aggression from your angels due to whatever causes outlined here. Basically, you do need as much space for your angels as you can provide, allowing for their eventual size. I fail to see the benefit of keeping fish that are going to be continually hiding away due to aggression from other fish.
You could try taking the aggressive fish back to your dealer and exchanging them for different ones. You may be lucky to replace them with a different sex, or a more placid specimen. This could take several tries though!
As said earlier, the individual experiences from many aquarists posting on forums give a wide range of experiences. You will, in the end, settle for what you learn by your own.
Good luck with your journey.

silent world
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have read as many books, postings, and forums that I could find; I have done hours and hours of research on angles before we got them and after we began having problems. This is the first time in many years that I have had any problems with aggression in angelfish (I've had them before and have kept fish since I was a young child - almost everyone in my family had an aquarium); until now, the only fish I have had agression problems with have been Bala sharks.

We've had these angelfish for quite awhile, and we've already decided that we will do everything possible to avoid giving them up - that isn't even an option for us. If we have to, we'll get another large tank before we give them up (we'd rather avoid that if possible, but not if it means giving them up).

As I said before, the aggression started when we moved them to a larger space - we almost doubled the tank size and made sure that we got a tall aquarium so that they could spread out.

Also, the two angels are already full grown.

I'm planning to try the suggestions already posted here (those that I hadn't already tried before posting).
 

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Re: aggressive angel fish

ok
what next
and remember with more fish you have more chance of both sex male and female

although this post is not about discus and angels
I'll answer my friend:
the only real conflict with discus and angel is that the dis cus is the most shying cichlid and if any fish eat more or be larger or smarter then discus could not eat well and this will make the fish weak and weak fish will sooner become a sick fish the sickness may kill it
the discus must be bigger than other fish in tank about two times

the same problem will happen to you if you buy some small fish of the same type the bigger one because of aggressions and eating more make the little fish weak

we are waiting for good news
 

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Hi, all, thanks for your suggestions.

Last night we got a pleasant surprise! We went to buy a new baby angel in hopes of something working out; instead, someone had recently surrendered a larger angel. He's still a little smaller then the full grown ones (about an inch or two smaller in body size), but thus far he's doing well (we named him Trip to keep the "anglefish" idea up). The three are still trying to decide who is dominant, but I took the aggressive one out before introducing the new one; that seemed to help quite a bit. I've been pleasantly surprised - the new one actually seems to be fighting for dominance but in a way I've never seen before. He's almost being sneaky about it (picking on the larger one, then hiding, going in under him instead of the side, and standing up for himself - to a point - when the larger one is being nasty). Also, the one who was previously getting beat up has joined with the new guy and they defend each other (maybe pairing up? They would make BEAUTIFUL babies). The nice thing is that sometimes there is peace in the tank with all three swimming together. We were really lucky last night. Because the fish was surrendered, we got to take him home for free, though we had to promise the manager that we already had an angel tank set up and ready for him.

As a note, we got him at Petco. The one around here is actually wonderful - the fish staff is (for the most part) knowledgeable, and it seems that the ones who aren't soon get transfered to another area where they can do less damage (unless they're willing to learn). The tanks are always clean, and the person who is mainly in charge of the fish is obsessive about checking on each fish and acclimating them slowing when they first arrive.

One weird note: the stone that we got pushed water back through the tube, filling the bubbler with water. Needless to say, we're going to try another stone tonight!

Oh, and the new arrival is a Koi - I've never had one before and he/she just brightens up the tank! I hope that things work out well - we're hoping for at least an "uneasy peace."
 

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No. The smallest will likely become a runt in time and will be bullied to death in no time. Note that it will even be considered as an intruder to your tank as well so it'll take a few considerable beatings to kill it.
Im in the same boat ive had my tank for about a year im very experienced i have a 75 gallon full live planted tank all my fish have grown together i had 6 angles they did fine until they got bigger and within the past week ive had one die every 4 days and now all ive got is the black marble angle amd hes very mean im not sure if he is just maing his own space or what but him and another stayed very close together and he won't let anyone near her now she is dead as well ive got about 2k in my tank
 
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