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Please Help - Ph has dropped drastically in a couple days

4K views 29 replies 5 participants last post by  KatyD 
#1 ·
I have a 4 week old 10 gallon planted tank. I was not aware of the fishes cycle before this all started. I have 3 male guppies, 3 Danio and an Amano shrimp. I've been very diligent about checking the water with an API liquid kit and have alway had 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrites and 0 Nitrates (not cycled yet, I know). The Ph has normally been between 7.6 and 7.8.

2 days ago my second ghost shrimp died (hence the amano now) and after I took the body out I tested the water and the Nitrites spiked to 1, maybe 2. I did an immediate 20% water change, adding conditioner and safe start. I waited an hour or so, checked the levels again and there was still a touch of Nitrites and ammonia actually looked closer to .25. I did another 10% water change, adding the conditioner again but no safe start. Today (day 3) the Ph is down to 6.4!

When I added the shrimp yesterday he seemed very happy and energetic, he was swimming all over the tank. He calmed down last night and today he's just been hanging around hiding.

The guppies and Danio appear to be ok, they're swimming around and chasing each other. Appetite was good last night.

Should I be worried?? And is there anything I should be doing about the Ph or is it a just wait and see?

Thanks for any help/insight/suggestions!
 
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#3 ·
I had the same issue. I added natural coral to my tank. took my ph from below 6 to 7.6. took about a week for it to change, but it slowly went up. Not sure if that'll help you. I ordered a big piece from Chewy. But you can get some crushed coral, and throw it in, or put it in a sock, and put it in the corner, so you cant see it.
 
#4 ·
Thank you! I've been reading a lot about that and think I'm going to get some tomorrow. I went back to my LFS where the two ladies who work in aquatics seem like they know what they're talking about and she said it looks like my API kit is showing my Ph to be between the low level results and the high level. The problem is, 5 days ago that test was registering bright blue (7.6) on the low end and now it's barely tan. I'm brand new to all this so maybe she is right?

Definitely going to try some coral, I don't think a little can hurt!
 
#5 ·
I wouldn't worry too much about pH while your tank is cycling. It's normal for the pH to bounce around in the start. It often happens when ammonia is present, kind of nature's way of protecting things. Below pH neutral, toxic ammonia is converted to a much less toxic form ammonium (same as what Prime water conditioner does).

What is your tap water hardness? PH doesn't tell is what this is. Do you know your gh and kh levels? You can find it out through a test (API makes one) or your city.

For now, fill a bucket with straight tap water. Leave it sit for 24hrs and test your pH after that. That should give you an idea of how hard or soft your water is.

Also, are you using API pH test? Your tap water tests blue out of the tap with the low end pH test, so around 7.4-7.6. The high range pH test is barely tan? So around 7.4? That is fine. I always get the same results, I'm going to guess your low range pH result is a bit less blue than 7.6.

A pH of 6.4 is slightly greenish yellow with the low end test.

I did add crushed coral to my filter before I kept South American fish because my tap's kh and gh is only 2 degrees. That makes my pH unstable. Kh is responsible for keeping pH stable. So most aquarists opt for a kh of 4. Add a very small amount of CC to the filter in a nylon stocking or media bag (you might only need a tsp depending on your tank size and kh values) until your kh settles at 4. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry at this point about pH and I would only make sure ammonia and nitrite levels are dealt with.

Good luck and I hope this info is helpful.
 
#6 ·
I'll try to answer everything and attach a few pictures.

I use an AVI liquid test kit for Ph (low/high), Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. I have the Tetra Easy test strips for Kh, Gh, Chlorine (I don't really pay attention to the Ph, Nitrates and Nitrites on these strips).

Here are the parameters for my tap water:
Ph - 7.6 (low)
Ph - 8.4 (high)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5
GH - 300ppm (hard)
Chlorine - 0
KH - 120ppm

My ammonia is starting to creep up, it's been rising to a steady .25 every day at which time I do a 10-15% water change to knock it back down.

What was really stumping me was my Ph was a bright blue for 4 weeks then on the high range it was the light tan color then suddenly it doesn't seem to register on either test (image of single test tube) but your explanation of ammonia being present makes sense because the ammonia has been at 0 until recently.

I do have some Aragonite sand that I was planning on adding (just a little at a time) to see if that would help. Do you think I should wait until the cycle stabilizes? I have a 10 gallon tank and I'm not sure I have room in the filter to add anything.

One other thing that struck me as odd - when I used a test strip today the levels were the same as they had been except after the wait time of 30 seconds, a different color started creeping in. Maybe that's because the strip isn't supposed to be read after that 30 seconds??

And thank you, this does help!!
 

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#7 ·
So is that test tube result in the pic using the high end pH or low end pH test? Can you post a pic of your low end result if it's not already up? If it's the high end result, it looks to be under 7.4 and makes more sense based on your kh and gh results. 120ppm kh is perfectly fine, it should hold your pH stable.
(My kh from the tap is 20ppm (2 drops) gh is 40ppm (2 drops) so my pH is not stable. It's good for my softwater fish though, I just have to be careful my pH doesn't fall to far with water changes. Just saying, I know all about soft water haha.)

IMO, if your kh is indeed 120ppm (12 drops) there is no need to add crushed coral for most FW fish and inverts.
 
#8 ·
Yes, that test result is the high end. I was trying to attach several but for some reason they would not load. Here is a full line up of that test day (my counter is green which does mess with the color a little bit in this) but the low end is pretty clear - it used to be bright blue!

I also have a test strip - I know they're not the most reliable but those last two squares did not used to be bright yellow.

My plants are also losing their color, instead of being a nice rich green they are turning translucent. Not sure what's going on there or if it's even indicative of whatever else is going on.

Thank you for the help!
 

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#9 ·
Thanks for the pics. Ok yes, I might add some crushed coral in the filter. You can add some while the tank is cycling, just try not to disturb the filter media. I use pantyhose tied at each end to hold the crushed coral. I start with a very small amount, like a tsp per 10 gallons. It may take a few days to stabilize at neutral, but I'd rather not raise it too quickly or too high.

According to your tests, your pH looks to be 6.6. I don't even bother with the high end pH anymore, it shows it's under 7.2.

Your gh is high according to the strips and kh is low. Soluable potash will raise your kh right away, but I just use crushed coral. You could also use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to raise kh, but I'm not sure how much to use. Your plants might grow better once you raise the kh, Or they may benefit from some nutrient (ferts) like an easy all-in-one fert like Thrive or Flourish Comprehensive. I have similar problems when my water becomes too soft. You should opt for a kh of 4 degrees (so 80ppm). It looks like your kh is not even registering!

So I think ammonia is pushing your pH down. The nitrogen cycle doesn't work as well either though with acidic pH values.
This is a quote
"Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state."
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

So for the nitrifying cycle to work at full preformance, opting for a pH of min. 7 is ideal. Once your pH starts to rise by adding crushed coral, any ammonia will become more toxic. Remember nature's way of protecting things. So although ammonia will be processed better with a higher pH, take care not to poison the fish by adding Prime water conditioner every 48hrs you test ammonia. One dose of Prime detoxifies 1ppm of ammonia (converts to less toxic form ammonium). So if ammonia is 2ppm, double dose Prime for the volume of the tank.

You can change out water, just don't touch the filter and try not to let aquarium walls dry, hold on to whatever beneficial bacteria you have 🙂 Just remember, changing out 50% of water only reduces ammonia by half. So sometimes a combination of Prime and WCs are needed to keep fish safe while the tank cycles.

Whoo, did I forget something? I know it's a lot of info, I hope I explained it well enough, let me know what you think.
 
#10 ·
Thank you! This is starting to make sense now, though slowly ;)

I have Aragonite sand, my LFS did not have crushed coral. It's supposed to raise Ph slowly, do you have any experience with that or is it the same thing? Would you add it to the substrate as directed or use the pantyhose method?

I am seeing a rise in ammonia levels, nothing above .5 yet and am doing the partial WC (leaving the filter and substrate alone) which seems to be keeping the levels even and the fish happy. I use API tap water conditioner and Tetra safe start, is that conditioner the same as Prime or is that a specific thing?

I did start using Flourish per my LFS about a week or so ago but I think the anachris is too far gone, looking to remove all of that and start over soon, I know the decaying plant matter is not good either.

Thank you again, this has been a huge help!
 
#11 ·
If it were me, I'd put the sand in the filter (or in the filter flow) in pantyhose bags. I'd want to be able to remove it once your cycle happens. See what your pH is once it cycles...
The kh/pH will raise quicker with the sand being in the flow than just left on the bottom.

Did you ever test some tap water in a bucket? I'm curious what your tap kh is.

I had to remove anacharis from my bare-bottom grow out tank. Just not enough nutrients. It grew beautifully in another (dirted) tank, so maybe don't give up completely, it may recover. But you are right, dying plant matter only adds to issues. If a particular plant does not do well in a particular tank, I remove it and go with more of what does well or try something else.
 
#12 ·
Oh and regarding the water conditioner, it must say it neutralizes ammonia to help keep your fish safe. Most municipalities use chloramine to disinfect city tap water. Chloramine is chlorine bonded with ammonia to help the disinfection process last longer. Water conditioners that only neutralize chlorine set ammonia free. Tetra safe start is not a water conditioner. It is bacteria to help with your cycle. I suggest you get yourself some Seachem Prime instead, especially while you are cycling.
 
#13 ·
I can't thank you enough, you have been so helpful!

I did test my tap water when all of this started and Kh is between 120-180 ppm according to the strips. I don't have a liquid kit for alkalinity. And I'll get some prime today.
 
#14 ·
be very careful with Prime and other ammonia "lockers". The do lock up the ammonia but most test kits still test positive for ammonia even with the ammonia already locked up. The danger is you test ammonia, add more chemicals, test for ammonia, and repeat. The ammonia locks also lock up oxygen and in extreme cases it is possible to suffocate the fish. Which will show the same symptoms as ammonia.


It is best to use ammonia tests which measure the free ammonia only (seachem ammno dot) or both (seachem multitest ammonia kit). And if you must treat only treat for the dangerous free ammonia.


Actually I just prefer to use fast growing plants which will actually prefer to consume ammonia over nitrates and in the process reduce co2 and return oxygen and fish food.


my .02
 
#15 ·
Thanks Beaslbob! I used the lowest amount of Prime last night, I won't use it regularly. I had to give up on live plants for the time being, whatever is going on with my water is affecting them too. The anachris has lost almost all of its color - the leaves are all white, almost translucent. The Java fern I had died and the marimo ball I have is extremely pale as well. I bought some fake plants for the time being to give the little guys something to swim in and around, the water looks better already! Before prime the ammonia was not very high, only .25 and I think I'm beginning to see Nitrates...maybe! I'll be caution with the prime, I won' want to rely on chemicals too much and will restock with live plants once things cycle.
 
#17 ·
Prime locks ammonia for up to 48hrs. You are supposed to test the water before you add it. It's true ammonium will register as ammonia, so testing after you add Prime is futile. The idea is to lock the ammomia to ammonium and during the next 24-48hrs, nitrosonamas bacteria converts to nitrite. Then nitrobacter bacteria converts nitrite to nitrate. Without any live plants (you can try plants again later if you wish) nitrate is removed via WCs.

How often are you changing water? The new tap water should raise your kh while your tank cycles. How much water are you changing out?

Now that you have removed live plants, salt (sodium chloride) can be used to protect against nitrite poisoning, dose the tank with 1 teaspoon of dissolved salt per 10 gallons. Salt does not evaporate, it stays in the water until you change it out via WCs. But the small amount will protect if your nitrite skyrockets. Just an FYI, java fern and anacharis can tolerate salt anyway. Just giving you the info in case of an emergency.

There's nothing wrong with using Prime to protect your fish from ammonia if used correctly. Knowing how to use it is important though. If you are only registering 0.25 ammonia, a 25% WC will bring it down roughly .06 points. That's not a lot of ammonia (19ppm), but it is still toxic to your fish especially as your pH climbs. You treat new water with Prime as directed, if you still have 19ppm ammonia, you would only have to use 0.25ml more Prime. It will lock that ammonia to ammonium for up to 48hrs. So if you are changing water every 2 days, the ammonia you register before a water change has to be dealt with.
Here is some Q&As regarding Prime
https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1803-prime-questions
It's pretty old, but the info is still correct.

For now, siphon your substrate well to remove dead plant matter or excess foods. Good luck 🙂
 

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#18 ·
#19 ·
I did test ammonia before adding Prime so I feel ok there. I had been doing WCs when my tests showed ammonia of .25 or so, Nitrites have never gone up (except when one ghost shrimp died, then they spiked). When the Ph crashed, I did about a 20% WC and that didn't affect anything but continued doing that daily for about a week to no avail. Then the ammonia started to rise (.25 mostly, occasionally to .5) and I started doing 15-20% WC daily or even twice (following the results of the test). After talking to my favorite LFS lady - I trust her, she's had multiple large tanks over the years and has 2 or 3 right now - she suggested maybe I was being a little over cautious and to let the ammonia reach .25 without a WC. Kind of let the cycle work type of idea but to keep an eye that it doesn't go higher. SO, I'm back monitoring the tests and acting accordingly.

As of today the Nitrites are 0, maybe a touch higher and I just checked, Ph is 6.6 so progress! I won't check ammonia until tomorrow since I added Prime yesterday.

Everyone does look very happy so there's that!
 
#20 ·
FWIW both low ph and ammonia are signs of a cycle. Low ph means high carbon dioxide which can adversely affect the fish.


You friend could be correct in that a low ammonia like the lowest reading could be either locked or just a temporary mini cycle that would go away in a day or two.


As the cycle completes or due to plant action ammonia will fall. But even faster the pH will rise. Especially with plants sucking out the co2.


On my planted tanks even with peat moss in the substrate, I measure a pH of 8.4+ with the api high range test kit. Yet fish like neon tetras the "require" soft acid water live for years. What I also found was that with the peat moss, kH and GH stay constant but slowly rise to very high values with no peat moss. And neons in those tanks don't do very well.


best tank ever
 
#21 ·
About peat, I have soft tap water as I've already mentioned, I don't have experience with harder water, but I still use leaves and have dirted tanks because I keep softwater fish. A good leaf to look for are Indian Almond Leaves. They are said to have antibacterial properties and shrimp love to graze on microorganisms that live on the leaves.
https://tanninaquatics.com/blogs/th...-exactly-do-catappa-leaves-benefit-our-fishes

The leaves last a few weeks and the leaf skeleton can be removed easily once it decays. Both IALs and peat release tannins into the water giving it a natural beautiful amber color. It might also reduce pH if your kh is low. So if you're not into tannins in the water (you prefer bright clear water), peat and IALs are not for you. I would wait until your tank cycles and kh stabilizes before adding anything (even natural) to alter the pH. But I couldn't stop myself from letting you know about them, I love using them myself. If your kh is 120 from the tap, at one point your pH will stabilize close to the middle/high 7s. I don't think you'll need to use crushed coral or calcium sand once kh stabilizes and cycle completes. That's when IALs and other botonicals can be introduced when housing softwater creatures.
 
#22 ·
UPDATE - I have nitrates and my Ph is back up to around 7.4!! Seriously, you guys are awesome. Thank you for all the info and tips, I think I'm finally cycling.

I've stopped using Prime for the time being, going with the API conditioner and Tetra safe start when doing WCs. I'll still test the water once or twice a day to keep an eye on that ammonia but I hope this is the turning point.
 
#24 ·
Thank you for that, great info! This is good information to have.

The part I found that I think pertains the most to my situation is:

"In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to
get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as
toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 ppm ammonia may harm some
of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to
do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not
seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a
chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7
days."

The API conditioner does not lock up ammonia but the Prime certainly does. I only added two small doses of that over the course of 4-5 days so I feel ok there and I don't think I'm going to use that any more unless something drastic happens. Also - my ammonia has NEVER reached 4.0, the highest it's been so far is 1 which doesn't sound like it will affect the TSS bacteria. Since I really feel I have a cycle now I'll hopefully only have to mess with the water once a week or so.
 
#27 ·
Nice! I'm so happy you are seeing positive results. Just to let you know, it's ok to use Prime water conditioner to new water. Bear in mind, with chloramines in the tap water, API conditioner will only set the bonded ammonia free. In a cycled tank, the nitrogen cycle will process the ammonia from tap water quickly, but I still personally like to make sure it's detoxed while the cycle deals with it. Totally your choice, I'm just letting you know.

I think it was cautioned not to use the double/triple doses or to be cautious about the free ammonia vs the already bonded. I could be wrong. I didn't know about the free ammonia tests, so that was very helpful info.

Anyway, I think you are on your way to cycle, now just wait for the nitrite to disappear and you're considered cycled!

You could add the 1 tsp of kosher salt per 10 gallons to protect against nitrite poisoning. FYI, Nitrite is also very toxic to fish...
 
#30 ·
So sorry for the absence, I was unable to get to my threads! Knightmayre - that graph is nice, thanks for sharing!

angelcraze - I went back to adding a couple doses of Prime over the last week, I'm trying to not do WCs every day and let that cycle really set it. The nitrites have not gone above .25 so not too worried about them but I may add some salt as a precaution, thank you for the measurement on that! I'll have to read the label again but TSS also helps with ammonia and nitrites and Prime can affect that bacteria from what I've read so I'm not using that while using prime - I have a basic water conditioner to remove chlorine. I haven't checked the levels in about 3 days, mainly because of the Prime but I will today and fingers crossed!
 
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