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High Alkalinity

10K views 21 replies 7 participants last post by  Mike 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I finally took the next step and began testing above and beyond ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH for calcium, carbonate hardness/alkalinity, magnesium, and phosphate. It looks like my carbonate hardness/alkalinity is high and my magnesium may be low.

My Parameters:
-------------------
pH: 8.2 - 8.4
dKH: ~15.5
Phosphate: 0 - .03 pm
Calcium: 400ppm
Magnesium: 1125p pm

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: ~15 ppm
Specific Gravity: 1.023 - 1.024

I began dosing the tank with CaribSea Purple Up a few weeks ago but have only done it sporadically. I have dosed with Seachem Reef Complete twice a half a week apart.

Does anyone have any recommendations for what I can do to improve my water parameters and can anyone suggest a dosing schedule for the Purple Up and Reef Complete? What are the ideal water parameters I should aim for? Will some combination of these two supplements be sufficient? These test kits and supplements were pricey so I would like to avoid purchasing anything else for the time being if possible.

Thanks!
 
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#2 ·
i personally like b-ionic 2part for its ease of dosing. you may also need individual cal/alk/mag kent (or another brand) bottles to help raise one or the other. the alk is high because of the purple up, which IMO is an over-priced alk suppliment. ease off of dosing that for a week or two and re-check your alk then.
 
#5 ·
Thanks, I'll try laying off the Purple Up for a week and testing again. Should I continue to dose with Seachem Reef Complete every 3 days?

What salt mix do you use? Certain salt mixes can be high in Borate and other trace minerals that can throw off your alkalinity readings.
I use Instant Ocean salt, Jeff. I've read it's considered a quality salt. Do you concur?

the i water parameters I aim for in my sps tank are.

mg 1300
ca 420
alk 8
ph 8.2
nitrate 0
phossphate o
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
temp 76f
SG 1.026
Thanks, reefs. Hopefully in a week from now my dKH will have come down but my Magnesium and Calcium will be as good or better.

Do you guys know if Seachem's Reef Complete is meant to be used in tandem with something else, or is it supposed to be an all in one solution as its label suggests?
 
#6 ·
well if i may jump in i also use instant ocean and my alk is a bit low (8 dKH) so i dont think its your salt.. as for dosing i am still learning my self but i was under the impression that one step dosing was for nano tanks (20 and under gallons) the larger volume requires a different approach... i personally would stop dosing and see what your number come up with out assistance and start from there.....
 
#7 · (Edited)
the measurements for instant ocean when mixed new should be around these values shen sg =1.026 at temp 25C. these values were confirmed when several new batch of water was made from different buckets and averaged out.

ca 400
mg 1450
alk 11

if you have a reef with alot of corals then some amount of dosing is going to be required depending on bio load, however if you mostly have fish i wouldn't dose anything at all. if you only have a few corals i probably wouldn't dose anything either because water changes will replace trace elements. in my tank i only measure the "big 3" that is ca, mg, alk! i almost never measure ph,and never phosphate, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate since the tank matured, i just know they are within the parameters by looking at live stock.
 
#8 ·
In my fish only tank I concentrate on alkalinity and calcium. I aim to keep alkalinity between 10 and 12 dkh, and calcium at 420-460ppm. Calcium has a such a huge impact on alkalinity that I find it easier to maintain a stable alkalinity when I am also dosing for calcium. If not, the result often is greater volume and more frequent water changes.

I would suggest that you stop dosing the purple up for now, test your alkalinity every couple of days.... wait until it hits 8dkh. When alkalinity lowers to 8dkh then run the full line of tests again. At this point you should be able to correctly judge a proper dosing routine.
 
#12 ·
I would suggest that you stop dosing the purple up for now, test your alkalinity every couple of days.... wait until it hits 8dkh. When alkalinity lowers to 8dkh then run the full line of tests again. At this point you should be able to correctly judge a proper dosing routine.
I haven't dosed the tank again since I tested and posted my water parameters on 9/1. I tested the water again this morning and my high dKH has not changed at all in the past week. My Calcium is about the same as it was on 9/1 and my Magnesium has fallen by about 125 ppm . :-(

pH: Did not test this morning
dKH: ~15.5
Phosphate: 0 - .03 ppm
Calcium: ~395ppm
Magnesium: 1000 ppm

Ammonia: .25 ppm
Nitrite: Did not test this morning
Nitrate: ~15 - 20 ppm
Specific Gravity: Did not test this morning

What do you guys think I should do to lower my dKH? Should I continue to hold off on dosing the tank with Purple Up and/or Reef Complete? I am concerned because my Calcium should probably be higher and my Magnesium seems to be starting to drop.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/water-chemistry/high-alkalinity-50641/#ixzz0yxDxc5zJ
 
#10 ·
I too have just run into high DKH!!! 12.5 and ph at 8.6!!! Just changed all RODI filters and fifty percent water cahnge and no help with alkalinity!! I use tropic marin pro reef salt!! Some one suggested adding purple up but after reading thread I am not sure!! The other suggestion was to increase my CO2 output on the Ca reactor to get an afluent of about 6.0 for a whle to bust up the high alkalinity and ph!!! What do i do???????????? To many different and opposing suggestions!! All of my ZOE's seem to be melting as well as a very high priced wellsophylia!!!!please help
111111
 
#11 ·
The other suggestion was to increase my CO2 output on the Ca reactor to get an afluent of about 6.0 for a whle to bust up the high alkalinity and ph!!! What do i do???????????? To many different and opposing suggestions!! All of my ZOE's seem to be melting as well as a very high priced wellsophylia!!!!please help
111111
There is no way i'd even consider increasing CO2 output. The numbers you've given aren't that high. An alkalinity at 12.5 DKH is really not an issue at all. The pH is a touch high, but certainly nothing to get alarmed about. The missing keys to this puzzle are calcium and magnesium. What are your readings?
 
#13 ·
theres nothing in the tank to use these up so it will prob. stay that way.
i suggest testing a new batch of saltwater, if the alk is lower then your tank you can do a 5-10 gallon water change which would help in bringing it down and possibly bumping the cal/mag up some depending on your salt mix.
i would still continue not to use the purple up because i feel this is what drove your alk up to begin with.
 
#14 ·
I'm in agreement on this. I would hold off on the purple up and continue to be patient. I wouldn't worry about calcium until the level drops below 320ppm. Long before then we should see the alkalinity begin to fall.
 
#15 ·
Hi guys,

It's been a month and a half since I've dosed with anything. I tested the dKH again today and it looks like it's at 14 dKH according to the API test kit and around the same with the Salifert test kit. My calcium is 440 ppm according to the API test kit (I tested with the Salifert test kit last time). It looks like the dKH may have fallen a little, but it's very little if at all. I read that it should be around 8 - 12 dKH.

Why do you think my dKH hasn't come down? Jon, you mentioned that there was nothing in the tank to use it up and Mark agreed. There are 5 peppermint shrimp, 3 emerald crabs, and a number of hermit crabs in there, though. Wouldn't they use up some of it? Could all of the rock in the tank be acting as a buffer and preventing it from falling?

I would like to add a piece of coral of some kind to the tank. Is the dKH too high to add it, or would it be alright?

Thanks!
 
#16 ·
This topic could by itself make a good book, so realize that these comments are oversimplified. In a nutshell, the organic waste produced by your livestock is an acid. These acids deplete your alkalinity. The amount of livestock you have is incidential to the size of your system, which is why you are not seeing any depletion in alkalinity. (Think: freshwater tank... German Dutch Plant Systems, for a comparison.)

Live rock is not a buffer. In fact, aragonite sand is a very poor buffer. Nothing in your tank naturally buffers against the depletion of alkalinity. Which is why I am personally so adamant about the need to buffer for alkalinity and calcium.

Your alkalinity is fine. 12 to 14 DKH is perfect in my book. And the calcium is right on. Feel free to begin adding corals. And from this point on you should be able to dose a balanced additive, such as b-Ionic, to make life easy on maintaining these 2 levels correctly.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for explaining how alkalinity is lowered by the acids produced as waste, Mark. I read your reply from my phone yesterday while I was out and picked up some pulsing xenia, my first coral since I kept a small reef tank years ago!

The pulsing xenia wasn't pulsing in the store, but the salesman said that sometimes it pulses and sometimes it doesn't. It hasn't pulsed since I brought it home, either. Is that a problem? Can it go days without pulsing and then begin posing, or do some specimens simply not pulse?

Also, I was advised by somebody at Marine Depot to get two hydor koralia evolution 1050's for my 55 gallon tank. As a result, there is a lot of current. I tried to put the pulsing xenia out of the current as best as possible, but the "stems" still get blown around a bit. Is that ok?

Finally, you recommended dosing with b-Ionic. I had bought Seachem's Reef Complete a while back but have't used it since you guys advised me to stop dosing the tank. Can I use this instead of b-Ionic since I already have it?
 
#18 ·
personally, assuming your tank has cycled, i would only measure salinity and do water changes for FOWLR on a monthly basis unless you have a huge bio load. I did that for years when i first started. I would only concern myself with the other measurements when you have corals. Typically soft and lps corals have alot more wiggle room when it comes to accuracy, but sps require alot more attention. Even on my sps tank i measure sporatically monthly to to every 2 months or whenever i remember or get concerned by the looks of the corals. Personally i only measure the big 3 to include alk, ca, mg.

BTW you can use arm and hammer(or some other brand) PURE baking soda to buffer your tank if needed. simply bake the baking soda for 10 mins at 350 degrees and let cool (i've also skipped this process whitout issuebefore, but i figure to include this step as that what i've read). then add as needed. i baked the entire contents then store the remainder in my tank stand for future use if needed.
 
#19 ·
Personally i only measure the big 3 to include alk, ca, mg.
I agree. In fact, I don't even test for mg. Alkalinity and Calcium are enough for me, unless the alkalinity begins to drop and Calcium stays high, which usually indicates a magnesium shortage.

BTW you can use arm and hammer(or some other brand) PURE baking soda to buffer your tank if needed. simply bake the baking soda for 10 mins at 350 degrees and let cool (i've also skipped this process whitout issuebefore, but i figure to include this step as that what i've read). then add as needed. i baked the entire contents then store the remainder in my tank stand for future use if needed.
Ehh... you're scaring me!!! LOL

I would suggest reading some of the material posted by Randy Holmes Farley on alkalinity buffering. The technique above is discussed, along with some carbonate based buffers to help offset the bicarbonate ion in the baking soda. But yes, this technique can be used.

For the extremely low cost of commercial buffers, I personally prefer not to take any chances.

Mike, your Reef Complete is a calcium additive. I would suggest using it in conjunction with an alkalinity buffer, such as Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH. I suggested the b-Ionic product because it is balanced and should keep the ratios of both in check with each other, without the added headaches of frequently testing both and often not dosing both at the same time.
 
#21 ·
Yes, Mike, that is the correct b-ionic product. You should add both parts as recommended to maintain the current levels. Testing will tell you if you are adding more than your system is utilizing.

To answer your specific question, if you do observe the DKH dropping and the Calcium remains the same, then we have other issues outside of this discussion. This will most likely not occur.
 
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