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Dinoflagellate problem

10K views 44 replies 5 participants last post by  reefsahoy 
#1 ·
so for those following along a brief update before getting to the point.
my 50 gallon has had a horrendous out break of algae!!! and it looks like a few different types .. so my journey to battle this pest has taken me to some odd places and now i have a few thoughts that i would really love some advice on...
step one 2x HOB filters with pads on front of tank, turkey baster, and blow the junk up into the water column to pull it out..
effect 24 hours then back to square 1

ok step two leave 1x hob on the tank (placed in back) changing pad every 48-72 hours do 12 gallon water change and research my eyes out!!!!
effect 24 hours or so and still an issue but not as bad

step three on day 3 after last water change do it again this time gravel vac the sand bed supper clean (back to white!!) read that carbon could be a contributor (especially old stuff and mine is about 4 months old) remove all 3 bags from the sump (just for kicks i put it in a bucket and added some clean water to it to rinse and see how bad it was the water almost instantly turned to mud!! this may have been a huge part of the issue)

this was last night so at this point i am not sure of the effect but after more research i have begin to consider bulding a phosban reactor, and or running some chemi-pure. i have one more water change to do this week just to make me happy and to continue on the original plan.
recent changes to the system were addition of a sound muffler to the skimmer air input (works great but not related) and changing to new piping for the over flow (went from 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch the flow is much much faster now!!)
also a recent addition to the tank is a pencil urchin who does not appear to be even attempting to eat the algae... (potential bad health and only having it since Friday may be a contributor here)

ideas thoughts concerns questions all welcome

before its asked i use treated tap water and have done so since day one this outbreak is only in the last 2-3 weeks
 
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#2 ·
A couple questions: How long has this tank been up? How long is your photoperiod? and What are you feeding the tank? Do you have any Astrea snails? to me those guys are the best CuC

Also it sounds like your carbon was full of detrius so getting that out of there is definitely going to help.
 
#3 ·
right about 6 months may be a little over
i generally try to keep lights 12 and 12 but the last week its been a bit more in order to do work on the tank (removal of algae etc)

i have mexican turbos and a few nasserus snails a few hermits and none of them seem to eat it even when placed there by hand,

yeah the carbon was NASTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

very glad i pulled it.
 
#4 ·
If it were me I would cut the lights back to only be on 8 hours or so but I doubt that is what is causing your issues. This algae has to be fueled by excess nutrients to thrive like this. So the real question is where are they coming from.

Maybe post a picture so we can see what sorts of algae we are dealing with?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Ok, here's my humble opinion. Your problem probably is being added from a couple of places but the most possible cause is via water supply (unless you are feeding like a mad man). I say this because when i first started. like most i was using treated tap water. initally everything would look great, then over time it went all down hill with algae and such. Now i strickly use RO/DI. notice it's not just RO. The added DI portion of the filter does turn color indicating that it's filtering the ions that are present in the water. A simple test is to buy a TDS meter and test your water. it's relatively inexpensive and i can almost gurantee you you're adding unknown pollutants into your tank. here's a link to a tds meter that cost only $20 Aquarium Water | Reverse Osmosis | RODI Water | ReefKeeper Water | TDS Meter from Senno. My tap water measures about 250 to 350 TDS before RO filter. After RO it measures like 6 TDS, then after the DI it measures 0TDS (TDS -Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) are the total amount of mobile charged ions, including minerals, salts or metals dissolved in a given volume of water, expressed in units of mg per unit volume of water (mg/L), also referred to as parts per million (ppm). TDS is directly related to the purity of water and the quality of water purification systems and affects everything that consumes, lives in, or uses water, whether organic or inorganic, whether for better or for worse.) Strive for ZERO 0!

Alot of hobbiest don't like to spend the $ on a RO system but i will assure you it's well worth the investment! If you consider the starting over cost, sand, fustration, cleaning, etc and i can go on and on, it's well worth it. If you cannot afford a new RO, go to your local goodwill store, habitat for humanity store frequently and you will walk up onto a RO that someone sold/gave to the store for cheap! we've witness this at several visits here locally. my friend got a full ro system for under $15. then he changed the filters and everything came to about $65 and works as good as new. if you do alittle research you will be able to figure out exactly what is needed and how to aquire it cheap. heck if you like, i'll tell you what is needed.

i'm surprised you stated that the urchin isn't eating algae. what type of algae is it? i know first hand that they do eat algae because i saw it with my own eyes!

other than that here's what you can do to help fight algae.
1. change bulbs if they are old
2. make sure you use quality waterfrom here out for topoff and SW making (RO/DI or at least distilled water from a grocery store. This will also help prevent this from happening again)
3. lower you photo period until you control the algae.
4. Use Rowa Phos or some type of GFO or Granular Ferric Oxide base type phosphate removal material (don't use aluminum base type like phosguard as this leaches aluminum into the water)
5. Patients, lots of it because you won't see improvements for quite awhile.
6. Hope you are using a quality skimmer.
7. feed fish and corals very little (most people overfeed and this is where alot of problems can come from)
8. CUC you can also put in a sea urchin and he will go to town bigtime! if you do please return him back to a LFS otherwise when all algae is gone he will starve to death (this is one way to see rather quick results but you must do all of the above to prevent this algae issue again)


good luck!
 
#7 ·
here are some pix... i have heard all of your advice and i am trying to get a plan together to get an RO/DI unit to be honest this has not been the best timing financially (long story i rather not impart) so i will do everything i can until i can get one....













 
#8 · (Edited)
that too looks like dingoflaggates! to get rid of it turn off all lights to aquarium for 3 days. then water change. it should be all gone by the 3rd day. if not do it again like a week later. if you got corals the reacclimate them by short periods of light then increase over time until you're back to normal. 3 days didn't kill my sps so you should be alright.remember that when corals are shipped from the wild they are in total darkness for at least 2 to 3 days too. and that's from poor water q cause when my di filter was exhausted i didn't realize it until i saw all this crap all over my aquarium. i've since replaced the di and now i don't have it. btw you're right urchins won't eat that. i thought you had like algae thats like green grass or felt. not that slimy stuff.

btw i just reloaded my di filter with a fresh batch of di resin since see this and another thread here on TFK! good thing i checked cause it was almost exhausted.
 
#9 ·
funny i actually noted this morning that there seemed to be a little less so i started the black out today!!! i have been looking at RO/ DI units and it may have to wait a while but inthe mean time i am going to see what the LFS charges and some other places... i will also start to run new carbon and either chemi-pure or phosban.... just have to see what is available locally for what i hav available.... i may even make another AIO tank and sell it off to raise funds...
 
#10 · (Edited)
leave all lights off for 3 days, make sure room is relatively dark or throw something over the tank to make it dark. the first day not much change but a big change by 2 1/2 days. use a flashlight to check progress and keep light to a minimum. dont be tempted to run short on the lights day unless emergency. then do a water change and i would use distilled or ro from a lfs.

btw show a before and after pic when you get the results to show effectiveness of treatment

thanks
good luck
 
#11 ·
update
last night went home and looked in the tank (still lights out) pest appears to be 85-90% gone in just one day of no light.

today starts day two of lights out and a new change to feeding schedule
previously i was feeding 1x daily as of now i am going to every other day. i feed a mix i made from the following
reef flakes
garlic
bloodworm
pellets
krill
all is placed in equal parts to a chopper with one clove garlic. chopped and mixed well and refrigerated i make enough to last 1 month with the old feeding schedule (it will last longer now LOL)

looking at RO units and a question came up fromone of my kids i thought was worthy of asking here - would a filter such as PURE or a Britta type water filter work? and is there a way to DIY a RO unit? these are simple questions with idle curiosity behind them..
 
#12 · (Edited)
update
last night went home and looked in the tank (still lights out) pest appears to be 85-90% gone in just one day of no light.

today starts day two of lights out and a new change to feeding schedule
previously i was feeding 1x daily as of now i am going to every other day. i feed a mix i made from the following
reef flakes
garlic
bloodworm
pellets
krill
all is placed in equal parts to a chopper with one clove garlic. chopped and mixed well and refrigerated i make enough to last 1 month with the old feeding schedule (it will last longer now LOL)

looking at RO units and a question came up fromone of my kids i thought was worthy of asking here - would a filter such as PURE or a Britta type water filter work? and is there a way to DIY a RO unit? these are simple questions with idle curiosity behind them..
I guess the lights out seems to be working! i know it works wonders for dino's i had it bad once and found that my di on the ro side was totally exhausted. after the lights out i changed the media and no more dinos! i don't think there is a diy ro but check those habitat for humanity stores. you'll be surprised what you'll find in there. i found t5 ballasts for $2/ea and helped a friend build a fixture with 4 t5's for little$.

about a di filter i just thought about. just buy one of these and use it like an aquarium filter in a bucket of fresh non salt- water and circulate it for a day or so. you'll have di water at the least. make sure you buy color changing media for it.but i dont think the media will last long.

btw you look as if you're quite feeding heavily.

http://www.airwaterice.com/product/ADDVERTDI/Vertical-Color-Changing-DI-Adder-Kit.html
 
#13 ·
i was thinking that also it was only a pinch but i have a big pinch LOL.... again slowed it down and i am heading to the habitat store tomorrow they are only open friday and saterday hare and i get out of work to late to catch them today.. i am really being ore receptive than my posts reflect i am i am also just attempting to make a lot work just now.. i called my LFS and got a good price on water and saturday when its time for a big change i am going to do 50% with his RO water.... its a start right?
 
#15 · (Edited)
yes it's a good start. ask the lfs how often he changes his filters and if he has a tds meter you can check the quality of his water. or if you think he's a real good lfs you can take the chance. if they have a ro and never change the filters it can be just as bad or worse. or simply look at his di filter (the last on in the line) and make sure it's mostly blue. if it's totally yellow beware! it can also be half blue and half yellow which shows it will soon need changing.
 
#16 ·
the sump looks a bit greener than normal but other wise the same as it has for a long time... my only worry with shutting down that light is my cheato and that it helps keep my PH from swinging...i get scared about messing this up its been really close to throwing in the towel over the last week and if that messes anything up i think i will have a break down ....
 
#19 ·
i had went and look at your build thread and saw tiny bubbles on the rocks. beware! if you are afraid just monitor the cheato and if it's dying turn light\s back on. remember whan stores ship this stuff it can take a coupe days to reach its destination. it may not be happy but it won't die that quick. just use common sense and accilimate everything with shorten light period then increase over a period of days
 
#18 ·
on a ro it's usually the cartridges are
1 prefilter can be white
2 2nd filter can be white or carbon block
3 carbon block
4 ro membrain
5 Di (should be greenish blue not totally YELLOW)
6 possib ly second DI

dont buy water if di is mostly yellow!
 
#20 ·
what post did you see the bubles in? i will go back and look but that would help....

and about the cheato ... i will cut it first thing when i get home.... wow my cats are gonna freak out LOL this will be the first time that light was off in over 3 months....
 
#22 ·
what post did you see the bubles in? i will go back and look but that would help....

and about the cheato ... i will cut it first thing when i get home.... wow my cats are gonna freak out LOL this will be the first time that light was off in over 3 months....
here's your pic. post 51


 
#23 ·
ahhhhh ok well about that first that pic is from july and those rocks has long since been cleaned and moved or gotten rid of... and second that is the chamber right after my inlet/skimmer section of the sump a butt load of bubbles floats around in there... those ones came off after fixing the flow the next day....

but now my curiosity ahs the better part of me what whould be the issue with air bubbles?
 
#24 ·
but now my curiosity ahs the better part of me what whould be the issue with air bubbles?
i believe that's the start of dinos but dont quote me on that. just my thoughts.
 
#26 ·
the light out will kill the dinos, but if you don't use quality water it wil be back. from what i've read the bubbles kill snails and hermit. my suspicion is they run over it and the air gets trapped in ther shell drowining them in air thats why your cuc was dying off. the best way to prevent most issues in a reef is with high quality water. remember reefs need high lighting and so do algae. algae needs food to grow so you gotta keep that to a minimum. to me the backbone of any reef is a heck of a skimmer and high q water. with that the skimmer will pull out waste before it breaks down into phosphates fueling algae outbreaks. this tank i have now literally has no algae and all i do is use high q water and i have a one hell of a skimmer and it's oversized too! if i throw in food the fish and corals need to eat quick cause the skimmer will remove it fast.
 
#28 ·
LOL. you're right there was someone else that seem to have dinos and in his thread he was stating that his snails were dying off and his parameters were fine. it was hard to tell if the pics he posted was dinos but i gave him the same info to rind dino if he thought that was what it is.
 
#29 ·
i wont be able to get the RO unit for a bit.. but i have noticed some cool parts in my scrap bin that may be of some use and i wanted to rough out an idea and get a little feed back.,.

from the tank the water overflows and runs to my laundry room and then down to the sump
my thought is that i could build a PVC (or other container not decided yet) this container would be just large enough to house media bags so that the water would have to flow through them before hitting the skimmer chamber of the sump. i would run 3 bags the top one with carbon, the next with fosban (or similar product) and the final bag would be chemi-pure. the water would exit the bottom and go into the first chamber of the sump and the skimmer would do its job before the water moved on to the rest of the sump.


now my questions are will the gravity feed be enough or should i set it up with a pump?
the concept is similar to a canister filter but with no bio-media so i dont get more issues than i started with LOL... now the main idea is to get the best water possible with out the RO unit i really need and this would most likely not be a long term solution but would i get the results i am hoping for?
i know th RO unit is what is needed but money is on hold for a bit until taxes come in...again not trying to avoid getting one just trying to get the best results until i get one
 
#31 ·
from the tank the water overflows and runs to my laundry room and then down to the sump
my thought is that i could build a PVC (or other container not decided yet) this container would be just large enough to house media bags so that the water would have to flow through them before hitting the skimmer chamber of the sump. i would run 3 bags the top one with carbon, the next with fosban (or similar product) and the final bag would be chemi-pure. the water would exit the bottom and go into the first chamber of the sump and the skimmer would do its job before the water moved on to the rest of the sump.
I haven't posted yet, but i've been following this thread. I would scrap this idea. You have the best of intentions, but this will create a forced flow situation where water flows across media which is porous in nature. This will create biological activity increasing nitrates, and indirectly causing phosphates to rise.
 
#30 ·
if it were me, i'd skip all that and just buy distilled water or ro from a lfs. carbon, phosban,and seachem, are all expensive stuff and is reactive meaning trying to remove the"bad" stuff that you've already added from the tap water. if you buy distilled or ro it would have not been added so the use of those things would only be minimal and the savings of not buying those stuff can be put towards getting a ro system quicker. if you check out sea chem, carbon, phosban you'll see that it adds up in cost quickly and i think it would be cheaper in the long run to use ro. jus my .02 cents
 
#33 ·
will do pix when i have 5 minutes but yes the tank looks great right now... need to get the water for a change tonight.... would have been last night but my brother - in - law got us out X-mass tree!!!!!!!!!!!1 so the kids and every one been real busy setting it up and making adjustments LOL (its now 8.5 feet tall and about 5 feet around!!)
 
#35 ·
LOL i know and i am sorry but i had to put on the superman outfit this weekend and take care of some very serious issues.... however i have changed my light pattern so that i will be putting them on when i return home from work i was way off in my calculations prior and after some argument we discovered i was not so much doing 12 on and 12 off but more like 15-17 on!!!!!!!1 (dont tell the wife i said it but she as right all along!!) so if things remain calm today i will get those pix up tonight if not we much wait another day......
 
#36 ·
I'm glad to hear that it seems like you've beaten this problem, Brett. I look forward to seeing the after picture. I have a question about what dinoflagellates look like. Is it the red/green dusting on all of the rocks in the pics you posted? http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/water-chemistry/ahhhh-dream-over-lol-56548/#post52475

If so, then I'm battling the same thing myself. My rocks are red/green and develop bubbles all over them. I thought it was the start of coraline algae at first. Boy, was I wrong. I do have a rock with a tiny bit of coraline that I'm trying to see spread. It's something like my last bastion of hope.

How long can I leave the lights off for to combat the dinoflagellates without adversely impacting the coraline algae?

I hope these related questions don't amount to a hijack of your thread. If you feel they do, you're welcome to move this post to its own thread. :)
 
#37 ·
I'm glad to hear that it seems like you've beaten this problem, Brett. I look forward to seeing the after picture. I have a question about what dinoflagellates look like. Is it the red/green dusting on all of the rocks in the pics you posted? http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/water-chemistry/ahhhh-dream-over-lol-56548/#post52475

If so, then I'm battling the same thing myself. My rocks are red/green and develop bubbles all over them. I thought it was the start of coraline algae at first. Boy, was I wrong. I do have a rock with a tiny bit of coraline that I'm trying to see spread. It's something like my last bastion of hope.

How long can I leave the lights off for to combat the dinoflagellates without adversely impacting the coraline algae?

I hope these related questions don't amount to a hijack of your thread. If you feel they do, you're welcome to move this post to its own thread. :)
take a pic a post it on a new thread or somewhere. dino's are like the pics bears posted earlier in this thread. what you may have could be red slime algae also.

so if it's red algae if it's alot scrub the excess off while syphoning the water to catch the particles rubbed off then use red slime remover by following the label and completing a water change after, then increase your water movement (this part i'm not 100% sure works but that's common knowledge as per articles i've read but personally i've had tanks with tons of water movement with red algae but i'd increase movement anyways to be sure)

If it's dinos, turn off lights for 3 days making sure tank stays dark (tank lit up in a bright room of indirect sunlight) after 3 day it should be all gone. if it's really bad you may have to do it again like in a week or so.

No matter what treatment or issue you had it will come back if you don't eliminate the source. Most likely it's the quality of the water you are using for topoff or SW changes.

To me, having a successful SW/reef tank you should start out with good quality water. Remember unlike FW tanks, SW tanks typically have strong lighting and not enough plants that will keep compete with algae to keep nutrients low. Algae LOVES strong lighting and nutrient rich water. We have minimal control of lighting if we are keeping photosynthetic corals because those animals depend on lighting to sustain life, so we MUST control the other variable. Corals that need light needs relatively little nutrient in the water to live because most depend on photosynthesis. The nonphotosynthetic corals need nutrient rich water but little light and to control algae in these tanks you use very little light (i have little experience/knowledge with these types of tanks)!

To control nutrient in a SW tank.
1. start with good quality water, feed just enough to keep animals healthy (this is where most people make mistakes by over feeding and create nutrient rich waters too)
2. Use a really good skimmer because it will remove waste before it breaks down causing havoc in your tank.
3. water change and vacuum sand when you do. I personally alternate and only vacuum half the tank at any time i'm doing water change so i dont destroy all my bacteria.
4. you can use ROWA phos remover or some type of GFO. Don't use the aluminum base as this has a negative effect on some corals over time.
5. use quality lighiting and control lighting schedule.
6. keep bioload at a reasonable level.

good luck and hope this helps!
 
#38 ·
Admin - by all means if it is a way to help get more conversation consolidated please high jack away!! LOL i am not worried at all.. i did a three day black out and reassessed my feeding and light schedule... so far so good and again pix soon to be honest everything looks just like it did before... welllll... may be a little better to be honest my corals seem happier and my fish are more active.... man its some times the simple things that make the biggest changes....
 
#44 ·
Congrats on getting things back under control, Brett!

Admin - by all means if it is a way to help get more conversation consolidated please high jack away!
If you insist. :p

I don't have pictures, but I put towels over the front and one side of my tank (held up with soup cans on top of the canopy) for an almost total blackout for a day. My wife couldn't handle the fish "being scared" anymore the next day, so I took down the towel and left the light off for two days. :p That seemed to clear up much of the problem. Since then, I've been limiting the lights to 6 - 8 hours a day. What I thought was cyanobacteria (but am now thinking may have been dinoflagellates) seems to be gone. :)

As an aside, the morning after the day the tank was covered with towels, I found our blenny dried up on the floor behind the tank. Jumping was some feat since it had a mere 1.5 inches of clearance between the glass top and the edge of the tank. We'd had it for a few weeks without incident, so I wonder if the near total darkness for a day caused it to "panic" or otherwise behave erratically?
 
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