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Sick and dying fish- multiple species

7K views 48 replies 7 participants last post by  jimmadsen 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings all. I have a 50 gallon curved front tank with 2 aquaclear 50g filters on there. One has charcoal the other does not. Temp stays at about 70 deg. Lighting is a 50/50 Actinic daylight bulb. Light and bubbler with 2 8" strips on each side of the tank with large bubbles run on a timer from noon to 9pm.

Have currently:
8 neon tetras (a few weeks ago had 10)
6 tetra skirts (2 white / albine, 2 zebra striped, 2 glo)
5 male guppies (seems to be enough of a school they do not fight)
4 oto's
1 bristlenose pleco
1 other pleco type catfish that looks like a blackish white and brown with a horizontal stripe4" oto forgot his type

Substrate is about 3 inches of gravel. Have an algae ball and a live plant. Try and change weekly to two weeks at 20% always vacuuming gravel.

Few weeks ago had a third glo tetra seem to have swim bladder problems. Started to corkscrew, swim sideways float to the top and such. He eventually died and got pulled pretty quickly. Subsequent research leads me to fear it was a parasite.

In past 2 weeks have had 2 neon tetras die for no apparent reason. Nobody in the tank seems to be nippers and they were pretty safe in their school.

Today found a very lethargic oto lying on his back until disturbed then swims around. And a glo tetro losing the roundness over his eyes, now looks more angular. This poor guy kept getting stuck on the filter. No apparent discoloration or fin nips.

Did a 15 gallon change and replaced carbon and put in a ammonia absorber. Vaccumed out the gravel real good as well.

Further inspection shows 2 neon tetras with 1 bright white spot each on flank, one near gill the other at fin joint. This is a bright white. The type of bright white that you can spot across the room with the actinic bulb. I also say on 2 of my glo danios (blue and purple, supposidly the bigger hardier ones of all the colors) that their stomoach areas are losing their color and turning pale white. No noted swimming problems to these four fish. My other 2 glo danios do not appear to have same issue.

I will be working on getting all 6 into my 2 gallon hospital tank. But that is way to small for all of them!

Is this parasite? Neon tetra disese? My imagination? Thanks for the help.

Jim

1. What is the size of your tank? 50 gallon

2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used. Brought to petco and asked them to test to be sure, nitrates tad high, everything else normal (am getting my own kit soon)

3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water? freshwater

4. How long the aquarium has been set up? 9 months

5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them? fish as above, skirt tetras 8-9 months, guppies 4-5 months, danios 6-7 months, neons 3-4 months, otos 4-5 months, unknown pleco 4 months, bristlenose 3 months, neon tetras 2-3 months

6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)? no, only the one tank except for a hospital tank at 2 gallons

7. What temperature is the tank water currently? 70

8. Are there live plants in the aquarium? yes

9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity. 2 auqaclear 50 gallon filters. both with sponge cleaned weekly, one with charcoal, both with biomax tablets. Just put in new sponges new charcoal and ammonia remover to be on safe side to one without charcoal. These replaced per manufactorer

10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)? bubbler

11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)? light on noon to 9 pm, some daylight when curtains open in living room same time frame. plenty of algae growth

12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate? today, 15 gallon, 1-2 weeks, yes

13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule? tropical fish flake, once a day at night

14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish? see post

15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis. no
 
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#2 ·
Welcome to the forum! Sorry no one posted yet to help. Difficult when these things happen. :-? Your tank sounds like it's cycled, but something appears to have caused stress in your tank. The spots sound like ich possibly, which is easily treated with something like "Quick cure" (follow directions for tetras) and increasing temp. Your tank temp at 70 is too low. I'd raise it slowly to about 78 and keep it there. To treat for ich, you can raise your temp up to 85 as long as the fish don't show signs of stress. I'm guessing the temp of 70 may be the problem, but I could be wrong.

You should not replace all your filter media with water changes, in case you are doing that. Media hold very benefical bacteria.

You should not have nitrate readings over 20ppm. I keep mine around 5-10ppm. Get a liquid API test kit asap. I would not trust Petsmarts tests, as they use strips which are not reliable. Make sure you don't have Nitrites, which are very deadly. If you have nitrates, you shouldn't be getting nitrite readings, unless your bacteria level can't keep up with the waste/bioload. I hope that helps a little. How are things going now?
 
#4 ·
The temp doesn't kill the parasite, it just speeds up their life cycle and allows the medication or salt (many people use this, but since you have a plant, I didn't mention it) to work. Ich can only be killed when it's in its free swimming stage, and not while it is hosting the fish.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Heat alone cures ich, every time - no need for salt or meds or anything else. It kills the parasite by interfering with its life cycle.

86 is the magic number - it's what is most commonly quoted, and will do the job the vast majority of the time. MM - 87 is not the lowest. We have gone over this before. its only one degree, i know, but inaccurate is inaccurate. If you want to keep saying that, then say 87 is the lowest temp that YOU use.

However, some strains are more resistant to heat than others - occasionally you hear about a case where it does not work. Happened to me one time, so I kicked the temp up to 89 and it was gone. From that point on I just go right to 88. I give all new fish a heat treatment while in quarantine.

Anyway, 85 may work as well, but the lower you go with the temp, the more likely it is not to work. The treatment time is 2 weeks. The spots should be gone after about 5 days, but maintain the temp. I don't know if its ACTUALLY needed, to maintain the temp for the full two weeks, but it's easy enough to do, and I've not found a reason to test it. Some people are concerned about the effect on their fish, but I have administered the treatment to close to 50 species, from tropicals to cold water to ancient fish, without a problem.


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#6 ·
Heat alone cures ich, every time - no need for salt or meds or anything else. It kills the parasite by interfering with its life cycle.

86 is the magic number - it's what is most commonly quoted, and will do the job the vast majority of the time. MM - 87 is not the lowest. We have gone over this before. its only one degree, i know, but inaccurate is inaccurate. If you want to keep saying that, then say 87 is the lowest temp that YOU use.

However, some strains are more resistant to heat than others - occasionally you hear about a case where it does not work. Happened to me one time, so I kicked the temp up to 89 and it was gone. From that point on I just go right to 88. I give all new fish a heat treatment while in quarantine.

Anyway, 85 may work as well, but the lower you go with the temp, the more likely it is not to work. The treatment time is 2 weeks. The spots should be gone after about 5 days, but maintain the temp. I don't know if its ACTUALLY needed, to maintain the temp for the full two weeks, but it's easy enough to do, and I've not found a reason to test it. Some people are concerned about the effect on their fish, but I have administered the treatment to close to 50 species, from tropicals to cold water to ancient fish, without a problem.




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agreed, however 87 is not inaccurate as there have been setting of 87 on some heaters ive used in the past. the digital thermo that was also used read below 87.. sometimes it would sit at 86 sometimes lower then that. the ich did not go away but got worse in those tanks. personal experience is personal experience. some books will say 85 some will say 91, in MY personal experience 87 seems to be the magic number anything less just makes things worse not better.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Wow a whole bunch of replies all of a sudden!

Quick updates, I moved the ones that worried me to my 2.5 gallon tank. I used fresh water but the sponge and charcoal from my recent change. When moving them, the oto and glo skirt tetra were pretty lifeless so I euthanized them to be on the safe side.

I raised the temp to 88 using my imersible 300w heater. I have the gauge on the heater as well as a mercury thermometer on the opposite side of the tank. I do not have a heater for the 2.5 gallon tank. But the water is at room temp of 70. All four fish in the 2.5 gallon are very active.

I was also initially thinking about ick but I am not to sure about that. Here are some pictures I took:



Here is a good picture of the glo danio, he should be all blue. I am worried about the discoloration on his belly. My purple danio is having the same but his picture didn't come out as well. And nope I do not have gravel in this tank. Not supposed to be used long term!



This one is a very blurry neon tetra. The white spot is what concerned me. I realize it is hard to tell but I cannot really capture it on camera in the 2.5 since the actinic bulb is what made it stand out.

Before I put the 4 concerning ones back in the main tank, I want to make sure it is actually something that I don't have to quarantine for.
 
#10 ·
Jim, thanks for the pics, but they are too large to see anything. I'm not sure if that has an influence on the blurriness or not. If the spot in the last picture that you are referring to is on the side of the belly there, then that is most certainly not ich.
 
#12 ·
If there are ich strands that are more heat resistant, I'd rather use medication than taking the risk of just using heat to cure ich. I lost 90% of my stock treating ich with just heat! It didn't get knocked out until I started medicating with Kordon Rid-Ich+

You have 4 fish in a 2.5 gallon? That's overstocked. I suggest only stocking 1 fish in the 2.5 gallon.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I lost 90% of my stock treating ich with just heat!
Sounds like there was something else wrong with them. You're experience is by far the exception.

Anyone who wants to know more about treating ich with heat can do a simple google search, and read the countless threads on dozens of forums on the matter. There are more successes than one can count.


Jim, if it looks like the fish has grains of salt on it, then it is ich. Anything else, is not ich, and raising the temp can be disastrous. If you can get a clearer picture, it would help immensely. In the first picture, I am pretty certain that there is no ich. It's clear enough to tell.
 
#15 · (Edited)
In my experience, neon tetra disease kills pretty quickly once symptoms are exhibited. It's a terrible thing to have to deal with.

Just about all fish are susceptible to it - it is spread by consumption, whether a fish is eating an infected dead fish, or nipping an infected live fish. If you think it might be NTD, then separating the fish is the right thing to do.

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#16 ·
No Jaysee, it was just ich. I'm not having any issues now that the ich is gone.

If there is just 1 small spot, it sounds like it could be fungus. I agree that we need clearer pictures.
 
#17 ·
As far as you could see. Losing 90% of your stock is a freak occurrence, which is indicative of an underlying issue.


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#18 ·






Here are two videos. The first one is the ones I put into a quarantine. The second one is a neon in the main tank that is having that same color fading on his left flank as the danios. Turn your volume down, my kid wanted more cherios and he got his point across! At 13 seconds you can see the spot on the neon at its clearest. (video1)

MAH00875 - YouTube

MAH00876 - YouTube
 
#19 ·
Not ich on the neons, and not NTD on them either. I didn't see anything wrong with the fish in the second video.

As for the glofish, it was tough to tell because of how much it moved around. What else is in that tank, besides the neons and the danio? Another danio? I'm not sure what's up with it's side....
 
#20 ·
Yes, it is another danio in there. It also has some discoloration but not as much.

Total of 2 neons with those spots and 2 danios in the tank.

This all came about after I lost 2 neons, 1 tetra skirt and 1 oto in less than 2 weeks. The first 2 neons I did not look into things that closely until the skirt and oto started dying at same time.

Glad to see it is not NTD, that had me worried.

Didn't think was ick but nice to have second opinion.

Thanks
 
#21 ·
I've seen those spots on fish before, but I do not know what they are. Could be a fungus, could be a bacteria, could be a parasite that isn't ich. Could be a pimple :) j/k Hopefully someone will know what they are, and be able to help you with the danios, since that appears to be a completely different issue.
 
#23 ·
It's a risk to put them back in the main tank before you've dealt with/figured out what is going on. I wouldn't, if I were you. I'd go out and get at least a 5 gallon for quarantine, if not a 10. Being able to quarantine new fish, and separate sick/infected fish is REALLY important for long term success in the hobby.
 
#24 ·
I'm in agreement with what jaysee has posted.

I have had those white spots on fish, in fact one of my Roberti tetras got one just the other day at the base of the dorsal fin. They do not seem to spread, so I leave the tank alone. Sometimes the spots darken and become almost invisible over a period of weeks. I've no idea what they are. The fish can live on, eating normally; other times they weaken and die.

As this blotch appeared only on 1 fish, it may have nothing to do with what is killing the others. I would leave the fish isolated. They are obviously highly stressed, so can you throw in some floating plants? This may calm them a bit, which can't hurt.

The inability to swim described earlier for another fish can suddenly hit one fish; I remove it as they never recover. This does not appear to be contagious. I suspect it may be genetic, but it can be brought about by other issues such as protozoan.

Keep us posted on the state of the isolated fish.

As for the temp, it is a bit low, but these fish generally prefer it cooler than normal tropical temperatures. I would however raise it to around 75F. And water changes should be more regular and more volume; never less than once every week, and 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume. It is quite amazing how beneficial these can be. I'm sure it is simply that the more water changed, the more active and healthy the fish remain, and fighting off this or that is easier. Works with humans, why not fish.;-)

Byron.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Hi jimmadsen and welcome to the forum. Chesherca asked me to take a look at your thread. Seems like you've had some problems with fish dying and you suspected neon tetra disease.

Neon Tetra Disease or the parasite plistophora hyphessobryconis is where sporozoan parasites eat away at the muscle tissue. This degradation then manifests itself in white patches or loss of color. In neons, one sure way to tell if this is the cause is if the blue strip along the side fades. As the muscle is eaten away, the fish often loses the ability to swim properly. While tetras are the most susceptible, other fish including guppies and rasboras (of which danios are related to) can also be struck. There is no treatment so euthanization is the best option.

However, not all white patches are color loss. In some cases, fish can be struck with severe enough cases of other external parasites that they overproduce slime coat, causing a white matte patch. This could also be a possible cause for the white spots.

Depending on the stress level of each fish, their immune system may or may not be able to combat an infestation. Sounds like the ones who are sick may have had suppressed or stressed immune systems.

For treatment, I'd suggest increasing the heat to 86 F in the 50gal to speed up the life cycle of any present parasites. You may need to add extra aeration as warmer water holds less oxygen. One week of this will work. For the sick fish in the hospital tank, I would also increase the heat 86 F for them if possible and add 1/2 teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon.

This part will suck but do at least a partial water change and a vacuum of the bottom of the hospital tank every day to remove any spores or parasites that may have fallen off. Continue with this treatment for two weeks. If the fish start to improve, you can start doing fewer water changes in the second week.

Now, just a brief aside: high heat does indeed speed up the life cycle of most external parasites and in the case of ich parasites, it actually prevents them from completing their life cycle at all. (Fish Diseases, Noga, pg. 97) According to this book, at 44 F, it will take the ich parasite 6 weeks or more to reach the theronts stage, where it is most susceptible to treatment. At 86 F, it will only take 3-7 days. High temps must be maintained for at least a week though, as the life cycle as noted can be 7 days.

Good luck and keep us updated. :)

Sources: Fish Diseases, Noga; A-Z Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems, Burgess, Bailey, and Excell; The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases, Jepson


EDIT: I went back to doublecheck and see if I missed anything. The white pimple? Possibly the beginnings of lymphocystis. This is a viral disease and thus can't be treated but it is usually nonfatal and will go away on its own within a few months. The severity of the disease depends on the fish's ability to fight it off. A fish with a weak immune system will often get covered in cauliflower-like cysts but a fish who is strong may only get one or two. It is contagious but again, whether or not other fish get it depends on their immune system. Only real dangers with lymphocystis are if the cysts burst and become infected or if the cysts cover the head and impede eating. All you can do is keep an eye on that spot.

Hope this info helps. :)
 
#26 ·
Thank you for the reply. I will bump up the heat to 86 in the 50 gallon and I will start doing 33-50% changes every Saturday. Guess I have a great excuse now to build myself a python.

Sounds like the neons should be ok if kept an eye on and kept non stressed. Since it has been just about 5 days with no apparent ongoing distress I am not as concerned as I was.

I do not have a heater for the small tank. It wasn't even really thought of to keep around as a hospital tank until all this happened. It has not had a problem maintaining room temp of around 70 degrees.

My thoughts now are to put them back into the main tank and turn the heat up. There is usually someone always home cause of our newborn so we can lay eyes on the 2 danios every few hours and scoop it out if there is any sign of trouble.

Any thoughts on that plan?

Idealy when space permits (in a small apartment now) I want to set up a 15 gallon for my kids that I am thinking could be a hospital / newbie tank. Although I woulnd't want it to be empty all the time either if I do not need it. Can I put some in there to keep it stocked or does that defeat the entire purpose.
 
#27 ·
How are the danios acting right now? While I'm usually against putting sick fish back into a main tank where they can easily infect other fish, I also totally understand that it may be necessary at times.

I know that some people do keep a few fish in their hospital tanks to keep a biological filter going but the problem is what to do with the fish if the tank is needed for emergency service. As I learned the hard way, switching fish around from tank to tank is a great way to pass a disease or parasites around.
 
#28 ·
I leave my quarantine/hospital tanks without fish in them for weeks to months on end. I used to leave a fish in them to "keep the cycle", but have long since found that unnecessary. I do have small MTS colonies in them all, so maybe thats enough. when i get new fish, all I do is add prime for the first couple days as a precautionary measure, and not feed for a few days. Then all is well.


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#29 ·
Everyone is back in the main tank and the temp is at 86 degrees. Everyone is swimming around pretty well. The danios actually seem to be more active now in the heat. So I will have to find a happy temp for them. Only problem is that my heater is 300W! Ouch.

The neons are schooling down at the bottom which was their norm and it is hard to tell but the spots I was worried about are diminished. The danios are also doing fine. The blue one with the discoloration has me still concerned but I noticed that the white spot is pretty much equal on both sides. It just does not make sense that it would be a parasite since that would not be equal (to my line of thinking).

I am doing a water change in about an hour (need to finish changing the oil in my wifes car first) thinking about a 50% change. Built my python type syphon so no more lugging milk jugs of water back and forth.

I have the API Master Test Kit on the way from Amazon. Should have it tuesday. The prices around me were much higher.

After this is settled, I will need to look at my algae problem, growing faster than everyone will eat it. But that is a question for a different part of the forum.

Thanks all, will keep doing updates.
 
#30 ·
It is to be expected that the fish are more active in the warmer water.

The wattage of the heater shouldn't be a problem.

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