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Newbie running into MAJOR problems...

This is a discussion on Newbie running into MAJOR problems... within the Tropical Fish Diseases forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> This was a 2-month update; it can take up to 8 weeks to cycle a tank. The BGK may have been weakened by being ...

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Newbie running into MAJOR problems...
Old 07-15-2009, 02:52 PM   #61
 
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This was a 2-month update; it can take up to 8 weeks to cycle a tank. The BGK may have been weakened by being put into an uncycled tank (I checked back , this tank was definitely not cycled when it was added) and then sucumbed to any number of problems. As we mentioned previously, stress caused by fish having to fight against something frequently leads to internal/immune/health issues that sometimes surface weeks or even months later. Of course, there is also the fact that the BGK may have had something wrong when you acquird it; I'm sure others like me occassionally have a fish die for no obvious reason, sometimes after its been in the tank for months. Fish develop cancer, liver problems, nerve disorders, heart problems... who can diagnose all this? But I still think it stemmed from the original issue, which is why we all cautioned and tried to help as best we could.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:28 PM   #62
 
Based on the water test records we keep and which were published here, he would've been in nitrites no higher than 1ppm for no more than 7 days (decreasing in concentration substantially day to day). While I respect your advice and seniority on this subject and can understand exposure to toxins shortening an animal's lifespan and causing developmental problems in essential bodily organs and functions, I just don't see such low levels being that detrimental in such a short period of time. Chalk up this whole situation to newbie mistakes and irresponsibility, and make an example out of me all you want for jumping the gun with our fish as a beginner; I just don't see that being the cause at this point - especially since there was nothing different about his behavior or feeding the last time we saw him.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:43 AM   #63
 
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With all due respect to your record keeping abilities, Nitrite spikes are nearly always preceded by ammonia spike. The fact that the levels you measured were in YOUR mind minimal,, does in no way bring comfort to the fishes ,nor does it mean levels of toxins were not higher at some point before your readings were taken. As you have conceded, nitrite and or ammonia poisoning, do damage to fishes internal organstThat damage is irreversible. Fish die within hours or weeks depending largely on length of time they were exposed to toxins. There are to my knowledge,, NO safe levels of ammonia,or nitrites in an aquarium. I refuse to believe that you believe,, the exposure to said toxins could not be contributing factor. In fact,, I shall go out on a limb and say that it was probable contributer.
We live ,we make mistakes, we learn from them.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:31 AM   #64
 
" With all due respect to your record keeping abilities, Nitrite spikes are nearly always preceded by ammonia spike. "

I never conjectured that we had no ammonia spikes. In fact I posted here when our nitrites rose because I hadn't been able to identify the ammonia spike in our records. Additionally, I believe it was you that identified the spike in our records. Regardless, the ammonia spike would have happened prior to our acquisition of this fish.


"The fact that the levels you measured were in YOUR mind minimal,, does in no way bring comfort to the fishes ,nor does it mean levels of toxins were not higher at some point before your readings were taken."

The readings I brought into this discussion are those taken when the BGK was added to our tank; as stated above, any nitrite or ammonia readings higher than what I described would have been prior to his introduction into our tank. My impression of these being "minimal" levels of toxicity is based on that fact that we joined this forum amidst a horrible newbie tank disaster in which there were MAX levels of toxicity - and even with that and losing most of our fish we still had survivors who were supposedly extremely sensitive to water conditions - and relatively these levels were a huge improvement for us. No, this does not bring comfort to all the fish, but we did everything we could to get this all figured out, and all the fish that were introduced early into this tank with the exception of the BGK and the cycling fish were added out of necessity because of the relatively MUCH HIGHER levels in their other tank at the time. I think at least some of our fish would be comforted by the fact we were trying to remedy our initial mistakes. As far as the BGK was concerned, I admit we jumped the gun. I've said that since our first post about him. However for less than a week he lived in water that was less than ideal and several months later passed away; our creatures that survived the '10 gallon tank genocide' as well as more or less the most stressful parts of the cycling of our 50 gallon are doing perfectly well and have been since day 1.


" As you have conceded, nitrite and or ammonia poisoning, do damage to fishes internal organstThat damage is irreversible. Fish die within hours or weeks depending largely on length of time they were exposed to toxins. There are to my knowledge,, NO safe levels of ammonia,or nitrites in an aquarium."

My point is not that the levels are safe, but that I'm not convinced such low (comparatively) levels for such a short (comparatively) period of time could have caused the kind of damage that would have killed him in this way. After all of our mistakes with previous fish and small tanks I've seen what water toxicity does to fish in high concentrations. Aside from the fact that our larger tank didn't reach the ridiculous amounts of toxicity that our smaller tank did (and we still had fish survive), the larger tank didn't stand at higher levels for anywhere near the time our 'death tank' had before we lost a significant number of fish.
Additionally, several sources give between 0.2 and 0.3 ppm as an upper bound for nitrites in freshwater fish tanks. You may disagree, and i'll agree that 0.00000 is still preferable, but there would have to be reason for a widespread group of people to think similarly on that topic. Yes, I was at 5 times that for a day, but the amount of time that it took to dissipate that spike down to the somehwat safe level of 0.2ppm was only less than four days.


"I refuse to believe that you believe,, the exposure to said toxins could not be contributing factor. In fact,, I shall go out on a limb and say that it was probable contributer."

I believe that the brief exposure may have done some damage akin to the level of damage binge drinking at parties all summer long will do to one's liver. Something unhealthy, but not life threatening caused by exposure over time to a chemical that does damage to one's bodily organs and functions. I believe that considering the situation with the tank that this is a generous analogy. I do not deny that we did things poorly and I am the first one to admit my mistakes as you'll see throughout this thread. However, I just am not convinced that our initial bad decisions would have caused him to die unexpectedly after multiple months of pristine water conditions, an understocked tank, nutritious hand-delivered food, and tank mates he got along with. I'm sure deep down that there was more to it.


"We live ,we make mistakes, we learn from them."

So I have, so I did, and so I'm doing.

Ultimately, you all are just giving me opinions and continuing to make an example of me which I don't exactly appreciate. Aside from this not even being the proper thread for the discussion (I opened up a separate one for ideas from throughout the forum), there's nothing anyone can prove about what happened now that he is gone. I asked on the other thread what people thought about how he had disappeared - not how he died; we cannot know how he died and I can't learn from something that may or may not have happened. I just wanted to hold out hope of finding our favorite fish. As far as making an example of me and giving probabilities that I killed him with poor choices- that's life and that's the forum mentality; but my purpose in bothering to delve into this and refute Byron's post was not to be in denial but to gather information. I was hoping that you would SUPPORT your opinions with actual evidence apart from experience that was so drastically different from my own. I'm here to learn, not get sassed for things I already feel badly about.

The fact of it is that we went along our business for fourth of July weekend and never saw him again after that. He was showing no signs of distress and was nothing but playful, hungry, and energetic. Our other fish who were exposed to bad tank conditions are also still alive, as is our frog. Even if this does stem from this cycling issue, it was a newbie mistake which I came to this forum to attempt to remedy and learn from - not be torn apart for. I'm not whining about how he died and that I'm so upset and there was nothing I could do and whatever else; I know that there is a possibility that it may have been due to those brief water conditions, and that there is a severe probability it is my fault some how considering his entire ecosystem is under the control of my boyfriend and myself. These animals are under my protection when they are here and it is my responsibility to keep them safe and healthy. Sometimes I will go with the lesser of two evils with my pets (a 50 gallon tank cycling versus cramped and potentially uncycled tanks) and that is still not the best path for them, but it's the best decision I know how to make. Acquiring the BGK as soon as we did was a mistake and we did put him through some water conditions that were less than ideal, however it was a matter of days before that was remedied and he was with us several months before he went missing (not even sick). That doesn't sound like a secondary condition to water toxicity to me. Feel free to link me to threads about water toxicity to back up your statements, but don't hide behind your experience and seniority to mock my willingness to assert my beliefs and reasons for them.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:58 AM   #65
 
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People on her have given you good advice and you come back and counter with i dont think short term exposure to the toxicity did the BGK in?.............What factual proof do you have in your statement?............No one is making an example of you........Your saying you dont think your BGK died from nitrite poisoning because he lived thru all the earlier trauma, the earlier trauma could have been the deciding factor in his death..............1077 and Byron are 2 of the more knowledgable members on here (amongst many others), take their advice and dont counter their opinions......Both these members are speaking from years of experience, although they might not have personal experience with BGK's, they both have given great advice on many other subjects and have been correct in their thinking.........Of course no one is always correct, but experience counts alot when it comes to fish keeping........What works for them might not work for you, but the general guidelines of fish keeping are always correct...........Ammonia and nitrite poisoning kills or shortens a fishes life......there is no arguing that, no matter how small of a dose you believe your fish lived in..........It caused them harm........period.........You claim to be a newbie fish keeper and i commend you for being here and seeking the info your looking for, but at the same time dont stand behind your beliefs and reasons and tell very experienced fishkeepers they are wrong in thier thinking
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:31 PM   #66
 
I'm sorry. I didn't realize having a different opinion than them was telling them they are wrong.

More specifically, I'm sure they don't need you defending them. They're mature and knowledgeable adults who have offered me maturity and knowledge most of the time. I've explicitly characterized the respect I have for both of them and their respective advice and experience. However, I have simply got a differing opinion on what happened. I think you may want to reread my last post.


" People on her have given you good advice and you come back and counter with i dont think short term exposure to the toxicity did the BGK in?.............What factual proof do you have in your statement?"

The advice given was regarding my actions previously and it was followed with the exception of a couple weak moments and times when doing the right things was sincerely outside of my capacity; what was offered to me in the last couple of posts was opinions. And you're right- I don't think that it was the ultimate contributor in whatever happened. What factual proof do you have that the toxicity DID kill my particular fish? Like I've said, nobody can know.


"Your saying you dont think your BGK died from nitrite poisoning because he lived thru all the earlier trauma, the earlier trauma could have been the deciding factor in his death.............."

I think he was affected by it and I think it would have contributed to his overall lifespan being shorter than expected, but I don't think it would've killed him so suddenly and without warning after only a couple of months. BGKs are known to live quite some time and get very large; such brief exposure in my opinion and from my understanding of fish shouldn't have caused his disappearance in this way without some other factor. I'm more than happy to read other threads and articles on nitrite toxicity if you would like to prove me wrong in that fashion, but I have never been one to take anyone's word on anything against my gut instinct.


"1077 and Byron are 2 of the more knowledgable members on here (amongst many others), take their advice and dont counter their opinions"

And I'm sure that mindset would have done wonders during the holocaust and crusades. Please don't talk down to me for wanting substantial information on what happened with my tank and wanting a better understanding of things than just their opinions. No one is experienced enough and intelligent enough to dictate to me how I should be doing things without reasonable proof and support. I'm a scholar not a sheep. Regardless, I have taken their advice to the best of my capacity because many do agree with the advice they have given me and there is logical evidence to back it up; but my probem isn't with their advice but their opinions, which I have taken the liberty of challenging in a fashion that allows me to learn based on feedback.


"Both these members are speaking from years of experience, although they might not have personal experience with BGK's, they both have given great advice on many other subjects and have been correct in their thinking.........Of course no one is always correct, but experience counts alot when it comes to fish keeping"

They are very experienced and very reliable; as I've said, I do have respect for that. Whether or not their experience is with BGK's at this point is negligible. The advice given to me was in general for fish keeping, and the opinions they're giving is on the affects of nitrite poisoning of fish; both of these things are a part of learning the hobby and I'm convinced that they know what they're talking about. However, neither has given me any particular anecdotal or scholarly evidence to suggest that my line of thinking of incorrect on this particular occassion. Furthermore, neither have you.


"What works for them might not work for you, but the general guidelines of fish keeping are always correct...........Ammonia and nitrite poisoning kills or shortens a fishes life......there is no arguing that, no matter how small of a dose you believe your fish lived in..........It caused them harm........period........."

It isn't called "poisoning" or "toxicity" for nothing, shortcake. I have detailed over and over (and been ignored) that I agree it was detrimental to my fish. My argument is not that it doesn't impact the lifespan and overall health of the animal, but the EXTENT to which it affected my PARTICULAR fish. That's something we cannot know and something not worth condescending me over.


"You claim to be a newbie fish keeper and i commend you for being here and seeking the info your looking for, but at the same time dont stand behind your beliefs and reasons and tell very experienced fishkeepers they are wrong in thier thinking"

I am new to this, and I'm glad you acknowledge that I'm posting here to get useful information rather than a verbal smack with the respect stick. I'm using logical and deductive reasoning to pick apart their arguments and try to make sense of them, and haven't been convinced that their opinions are correct. I have not said that they are wrong - simply just that I do not agree. Nothing more, nothing less. No actual evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) has been offered to me on this front, however, to really explain their reasoning either. I'm here to learn, not have a pissing contest.

Last edited by Cheknnudol; 07-17-2009 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:25 PM   #67
 
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My argument is not that it doesn't impact the lifespan and overall health of the animal, but the EXTENT to which it affected my PARTICULAR fish.

How can you say that?.......It affected other fish before the BGK.......The extent is it killed the BGK

I'm using logical and deductive reasoning to pick apart their arguments and try to make sense of them, and haven't been convinced that their opinions are correct. I have not said that they are wrong - simply just that I do not agree. Nothing more, nothing less. No actual evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) has been offered to me on this front, however, to really explain their reasoning either.

Arguements?................Nobody is arguing with you, they are giving you the reasoning why things are happening in your situation..........By thinking that thier opinions arent correct, you are arguing with them......You dont understand thier reasoning?..........Their reasoning is they know that nitrite and ammonia can and will kill fish.........Some in a matter of hours and other it could take weeks, but either way IT WILL l kill fish......

No one is experienced enough and intelligent enough to dictate to me how I should be doing things without reasonable proof and support.

Their experience is their proof and support...............Read all you want about this or that, but it can never replace hands on experience

I don't think that it was the ultimate contributor in whatever happened. What factual proof do you have that the toxicity DID kill my particular fish? Like I've said, nobody can know.

Experience, experience, experience.........thats what allows the members to make statements about what happened to your tank.........The factual proof is that the said fish lived in poison for how long?..........You think living in poisoned water didnt do your fish any harm?..........It caused their death........Or, since you dont agree with that, what is YOUR reasoning why the fish is no longer with you? since you wont believe experienced fishkeepers why your fish is dead, what is your reason?


You keep talking about "our" opinions about your fish keeping and wanting factual proof that this caused your fish deaths...........What did you expect to get when you asked for help with your situation?..........Did you want documented proof?.............What would it take to convince you that it was the cause?..........Would a marine biologist need to confirm what everyone is trying to tell you?........What would it take?..........
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:56 PM   #68
 
I think you may not have read the whole thread, Fishin Pole. That's not something that I'm not going to remedy myself by explaining the entire situation; there's a written record of it here on the forum.

The thick and thin of it is that I didn't ask anyone what killed the BGK but in the end it 1) doesn't matter and 2) can't be proven. If you want to say that brief exposure to that up and killed the fish 2 months after that exposure, fine. Go ahead. I'm not convinced though. I'm telling you why I'm not convinced, you're whining that I should be convinced, yet nobody is providing the intermediary step of either an explanation or evidence of precedence.

As far as whether people are arguing with me or not, I think you're misunderstanding the term "argument." That is also something I won't remedy here. If anyone is, though, it would be you Fishin Pole who at this point has jumped into a conversation without any prior knowledge of the situation and immediately displayed hostility. Good job maintaining and inviting atmosphere.

As far as articles not being worth more than a person's experience, I can tell you that scientific studies with control groups and statistics are a lot more convincing to me than a couple of people from around the world who have had very distinct experiences. I had an angelfish survive a long time in extremely unsafe water, survive the cycling of a 50 gallon tank, and continue living and eating and growing faster than any of my other fish who had not been through that hellish journey. Does that mean I can go around peddling my experience to other people saying that they shouldn't cycle or filter their angelfish tanks? I think not.

Experience doesn't make you all knowing; it just makes you insightful. Without a body and a necropsy there will be no 100% answer as to what killed the fish. Experience can grant insight as to what possibly or probably happened, but in the end it's all just conjecture anyway. The factual proof is that the fish lived in poison water for about 3 days and tolerable water for 2 days. For over 2 months after that the water was flawless and the fish showed no signs of distress, physical ailment, or behavioral abnormalities. I believe that the poison water affected him, but none of us will ever know exactly HOW it affected him or if it was indeed the cause of his death. You can assume that's probably what killed him all you like, but we will never know for certain. And without proof, it doesn't really matter. For all I know it could've swam into the side of the tank and killed itself and been picked away by the other fish. Having not seen the body I couldn't tell you.

I didn't ask for help with how the fish died; the forum jumped on it on their own accord and, while I appreciate their insight on it despite it not being requested, I simply just do not agree. That is all. I'm sorry you're so upset that I don't think exactly like you and trust these people without a hint of doubt in a situation where there isn't even a body or precedent of odd behavior to hint as to what was wrong with the fish. A necropsy of the fish would prove to me what kind of bodily harm had befallen it; seeing how it died (swimming funny, being lethargic, etc.) would have proven to me a line of symptoms that could be matched with known ailments. But we simple did not have those at our disposal.

I understand what you are all saying:
The toxins in the water did damage to my fish and it is probable (though Fishin Pole seems to be the only one who thinks it is definite) that the fish died from complications secondary to that toxic exposure. Poisons hurt fish. Cut and dry. Nitrite poisoning has symptoms. Also a known fact. Was I there to observe those symptoms in my fish? No. Was there a body when I returned home which I could examine to see if some horrible accident had befallen it? No. No there was not.

I think this whole back-and-forth has gone long enough, Fishin Pole. You're not listening to reason and you're asking me to abandon reason myself and just climb on the fish-master bandwagon. I have respect for these folks' opinions and here you are making a spectacle of yourself in their defense when they never needed to be defended. It's people like you who jump on others for no reason that make forums a scary place for people new to hobbies. If I didn't have a thicker skin I'd have been out of here already, but since I do I have no problem telling you that all I've done here is ask for information all you've done is insult me. I'd be more than happy to have a mod come along and read this and get an idea of what kind of senior member you really are.

Forums are about sharing information and experience and opinions. I received experience and opinions, and I asked for more information. Instead of that I got reemed for not being some ridiculous cultish believer. That's something to think about.

Last edited by Cheknnudol; 07-17-2009 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 07-17-2009, 02:17 PM   #69
 
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Yeah, your right.........Im' the one not listening to reason......Think what you want to think, no one is being hostile towards you.....We tried to help, but being contradicted at every turn by not having concrete proof is just enough for me.............

Who insulted who?...............I'm not known anywhere as shortcake.........Who is insulting who?.......

I have read the entire thread .......more than once and you are the one with the insulting, condescending attitude towards people who have tried to help you...........

There is no reason to worry, i will never offer my advice or experience for any of your future posts and i believe some other members will not take the chance to get in an debate with you, since the previous posted advice was and still is being questioned by you...........
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Old 07-17-2009, 02:32 PM   #70
 
Shortcake, as far as I know, isn't a term of offense. It's like "sweetie" or "doll." Sorry if you don't appreciate nicknames but they tend to come out of my mouth (or fingers, in this medium).

I've been nothing but appreciative of the information given to me throughout this whole venture, both on this thread and others. The only thing I haven't appreciated is your interjections completely irrelevant to the argument.

There was no debate here except regarding the words that I said which you so inappropriately dismantled, twisted, and redistributed to avoid the main issue which still remains that I would like more information on nitrite poisoning and nobody is willing to point me in the right direction.

I'm sorry you think that I'm being offensive by trying to defend myself from manipulative people like yourself who seem dead set on picking a fight. I've made it very clear that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the people you came here to support, and the only thing I haven't appreciated and the only thing i have remained defensive toward is your constant dereliction of my point. It seems that each post you make you accuse me of disrespecting or ignoring some one or some thing and when I assure you and even provide explanations as to why that is not the case, you find yet another thing to get on my case about.

I think we can both agree that your tone from the beginning of this volley between you and me was hostile and the only way to really respond to a post like that is defensively. I've repeatedly made my intentions, opinions, and reasons for those opinions clear and you've done nothing but disregard them and find new ways of harassing me on this thread and others. We will not agree on this. That's something I'm willing to let go if you're willing to mind your manners both here and elsewhere on the forum (as you've already shown you're willing to attempt to provoke me elsewhere).
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