Need some fish disease help. - Page 3 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #21 of 24 Old 11-03-2009, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cerianthus View Post
I am not trying to bring more confusion but posting as precautioany measure on top of what BB suggested/posted.
Although both malachite green and methylene blue can be effective agents in treatment/preventive of cerain fish dieases, please do research on what it is and its toxicity effects on Species of Fish before applying.
I have used both agents ,even potassium permanganate, in combating diseases successfull but very close attention should be given, especially with malachite Green, IMHO.

Maracyn and Maracyn II is effective antibiotics but there are other effective antibiotics avail to treat various types of fish disease. Try researching other derivatives of tetracycline such as OxyTC, a terramycin.(maracyn II, if memory serves, is one of TC derivatives)
Also avail are sulfa based antibiotics along with other types of aminoglycosides, etc. etc etc.
There is specific reasoning behind my choice of malachite green to treat this problem vs some of the other meds that were listed here. For starters, Triple Sulfa is something I fall back on as a last resort simply because many people are highly allergic to it. Just being near it is enough to send some people to a hospital ER. I have seen first hand (my boss) the effects on someone with an allergy, and it is not pretty... not to mention painful and debilitating.

As for the Maracyn meds, while these are great meds they are mild in comparison to the malachite green. Some fish species respond better to certain medications than to others, and rainbows are one of those who responds much better and quicker to Malachite green than to Maracyn.

Another reason for my choice is because these fish have already been through some medication treatments, and this bacteria has proven resistant to them all.

It is important that everyone be aware, when I prescribe meds it is not based on the claims made on packaging and labels. I base my decisions on the ingredients, the amount of effective ingredients in each med, the species of fish and how well they can handle a specific medication, and known responses to various meds for various illnesses.

It is ok that many people find fish medicine very confusing and complicated. It is not an easy field to work in, learn, or understand. Fish medicine requires many yrs of intense study, many yrs of hands on experience, research, etc. No one person will ever know it all, but some of us have had the opportunity to learn much more than others. It is no different than someone taking their dog to a vet for something that isn't a simple common sense fix. A dog with a bacterial infection is not going to get better if the owner has to do the much needed research to first diagnose the problem and then find a safe effective treatment, thus the dog goes to a vet who has years of education, experience, and research to help get it right as quickly as possible to preserve the life of the dog. Fish medicine is no different other than the medications are much more readily available and there are fewer individuals out there who have the education, research, and experience to help. When it comes to fish medications there are just as many risks involved, but people rely on company packaging to tell them what they need to know about a given medication. That simply isn't safe. Most companies do not list the specific warnings on their labels, nor do they list the specific species a given med is safe for.

When there are multiple species that need treatment for the same illness, finding 1 medication that will work effectively for both species and still be safe... can be quite a challenge. If given the chance to consider another medication for these fish with this situation, I would still be advising Malachite green over all others.

I hope that helps to explain my choices. Please know, I do not take other people's pets and their lives, or their pocket books lightly. It has taken me many yrs to learn what I know, and I still have to reference my research papers, text books, etc from time to time in order to find a safe and effective solution for someone. Also, I learn something new every day. This is a field where learning is endless.

Doing this via interent is a challenge of its own because it does not allow me the opportunity to view/examine these animals in person, does not allow me to collect biopsy or scraping samples to put under a scope to properly identify a strain of fungus or bacteria. When we run across bacterial infections in fish, there is no way to be sure if it is gram positive or gram negative bacteria without the scope work. Not all antibiotics treat for both gram positive and gram negative bacterias, nor do they list on the labels which of them they treat. So not knowing which the fish is infected with leaves us with only first hand knowledge of a given ingredient and what it treats, and to find a safe combination that covers both as often as possible. The other alternative is to treat for one, hope the fish doesnt die if its the wrong one, which gives time to treat for the other.

I could write a books worth of explanation here for you, but I dont think that is needed (nor do I have the time). I just felt the need to stress that I don't suggest any medication to anyone just by guessing or from some claim a company makes on their product. I bring with me my own education, research, experience, and that of my husband who is an aquatic biologist.

Dawn Moneyhan
Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
Juneau, WI
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post #22 of 24 Old 11-03-2009, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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I sure wish there where more "fish vets" available. I have spent a good $200 on meds already. Taking the fish to the vet, I could have got it right, the first time around.
The green should be on its way, but think I will start treatment on Friday or Saturday. My work takes me away from home, a good 12 hrs a day. I want to be home, to observe their behavior with the meds.

To answer some of your questions cerianthus,
*Yes there are open sores. They are in the first pictures, and have not changed much.
*No hazy / cloudy slime, only some white stringy spots, that I thought looked like columnaris. It cleared up with the Maracyn & Maracyn-Two combo treatment. A few spots have reappeared, since discontinuing treatment.
*There was one morning, I woke up to see "fin rot" on one of the rainbows and a cory. It quickly went away with the M&M treatment.
*changed carbon out on Sunday, to remove the Maracyn and maracyn-Two.
*There was improvement with the couple of fish with "fin rot", all the columnaris looking areas went away,the one rainbow that lost many scales is almost completely healed. I saw no improvement in the rainbow with the ulcer (on the first picture), and the cloudy eyes remained through out the treatment.
*I have not had any readings for ammonia or nitrites throughout, and before they fell ill. No new fish. Nitrates are higher than I would like. About a year ago, I started getting nitrate readings from the tap. Some days 10 ppm, other days, close to 30. I try my best to keep nitrates under 40. Plants and eels, do not mix well. I have tried.

Thanks 1077! I use the filter floss same as you. I have media baskets for carbon, that came with the filter. I have filled them with new carbon a number of times. I am not in the habit of using carbon, so when I needed to remove some meds, I bought some Pro-Carb made by Penn-Plax. Should I upgrade? I can hear it pop and crack, when I rinse it. I will look into what you recommend, because I do want, what is best.
I will remove the floss from one side, and add even more carbon, could not hurt!

on a side note, Do you think this disease could have been brought on by keeping the rainbows in a ph of 8? I am thinking over time, this may have worn down their immune system?

Last edited by Twistersmom; 11-03-2009 at 08:07 PM.
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post #23 of 24 Old 11-04-2009, 02:59 AM
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I have not kept rainbows other than the Threadfin variety but all published info suggests that your fish should feel quite comfortable in hard alkaline water.
In the past,when water conditions were at optimum levls ,yet I began expieriencing similar problems, I did sort of what Cerianthus suggested. I began looking at all possible variables from the end of the week, back to the beginning of the week, to try and determine if anything was or is, out of the norm. I am near anal about water quality so I can usually eliminate that so long as no detergents,hairsprays,deodorants, air feshners ,etc have been used near the tank or were possibly introduced by skin contact while feeding or cleaning the tank.
I also look to see if anyone else has access to the tank and could have possibly introduced something unwanted. When these possibilities are eliminated, I then nearly always look towards the one constant,which is food. If flake foods are over five or six months old ,I pitch them unless they are stored in tuppeware and kept cool. Flake food can quickly lose it's nutritional value and is best bought a small amount at a time rather than storing a large conainer on a shelf. I also look to see if any new foods were purchased and or offered recently in the way of frozen foods. I am not a fan of bloodworms in any form ,and considering that they are almost certainly not collected from pristine areas on a regular basis, it does not seem to me to be too much of a strech to consider the possible bad batch on occasion. Also possible that frozen foods may have thawed in transit and refrozen more than once. If foods ,for whatever reasons have lost their ability to provide nutrition to fishes then the fishes immune sytem may indeed begin to suffer. If food is spoiled, same possible results.
I am no expert,with regards to fish diseases but hope that your fish get better and that some of this may prove helpful if not now,, perhaps in the future. Good Luck

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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post #24 of 24 Old 11-04-2009, 04:27 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks 1077. They eat some frozen foods, so your suggestions are a possibility.
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