Ick Issue Take 2 - Page 3
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Ick Issue Take 2

This is a discussion on Ick Issue Take 2 within the Tropical Fish Diseases forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Funny you use the doggie example being the easiest pet....I got 2 and one of them just got diagnosed with some extreme diabetes late ...

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Old 11-27-2009, 09:48 AM   #21
 
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Funny you use the doggie example being the easiest pet....I got 2 and one of them just got diagnosed with some extreme diabetes late this summer (sugar went so high that it was 5 till 12 for his life actually).

I just wished I understood WHAT made them so sick - Not knowing what caused this in the first place, how am I to make sure its not gonna happen again?? You know what I mean?I don't wanna sound cruel or anything but I don't want to keep re-stocking over & over spending all this money just to watch them die, that's just not what I want.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:59 AM   #22
 
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I've been following this thread without much comment as I have little if any knowledge of disease beyond the basics. I had a similar if not identical experience a year ago. Cardinals and rummynose were the fish involved, new 33g tank setup. It pretty much went as your experience did, end result, all fish dead from velvet (that's even worse than ich).

Some observations. First, on ich. This always occurs due to stress. Healthy fish that are not stressed by adverse water conditions, temperature abnormalities, bullying, fright...whatever, will not come down with ich; they fight it off. So, something triggered it. I have also noted that it can occur in aquaria that have had nothing new added in months. I am not going to speculate as to where it comes from. I believe that keeping fish healthy and free of stress is a major preventative to ich and similar pathogens. I'm not suggesting you don't do this, I am only observing that something along the line stressed the fish to the extent that it weakened their resitance.

Second, characins are a diverse but quite special group of fish. There are seemingly indestructible species like Pristella that even do well in brackish water (the only tetra species I know of that does). But for the most part, they are sensitive to environmental factors and water parameters and quality, and especially to chemicals and medications. Characins are unique among freshwater fish in that they posess two features: the Weber Apparatus--a chain of ossicles, a fusing of three (I think) vertebrae that connect to the gas bladder and internal ear--and a chemical alarm system. Other fish groups have the rudiments of the ossicle apparatus, but the characins possess it fully developed. These fish have an uncanny ability to sense danger before it occurs. They can also detect food before other fish. Their hearing is very highly developed and accute--they can hear the water running through the pipes in your house. And, they have a strong chemical aversion.

Cardinals are very sensitive fish. Rummynose are as well. From past experience, I would never add these fish to newish aquaria. I put them in the same class as the pencilfish and many of the corydoras species; let the tank become established biologically so the water quality is stable, minimum 3 months after initial setup. I can state from my own experience (but I have read of the same from others) that these fish introduced to new setups invariably die (some or all), yet in well-established tanks they always survive. Food for thought.

Byron.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:28 PM   #23
 
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I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future.

I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?

Maybe you could also read my threat in the main forum 'Where to go from here' and see if you have any ideas there for me. I do want to restock the 55g eventually BUT what fish to start with. Org I wanted it a Tetra tank with Cory's, now non of them appear a good starter fish to me. So I was wondering for a good Company for the Rummy Tank, however place these new guys (after 1 week QT min) in the 55 for several months to get the tank going and then later relocate them in the Rummy's Tank...I donno where to go really.....
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:12 PM   #24
 
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I apologize for the dog comment then. I know how it is. My dog had Lyme disease. Not saying they're indestructible, but pretty darn close ;) Byron's post makes a lot of sense. I'd have to agree with his thoughts.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:42 PM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel079 View Post
I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future.

I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?

Maybe you could also read my threat in the main forum 'Where to go from here' and see if you have any ideas there for me. I do want to restock the 55g eventually BUT what fish to start with. Org I wanted it a Tetra tank with Cory's, now non of them appear a good starter fish to me. So I was wondering for a good Company for the Rummy Tank, however place these new guys (after 1 week QT min) in the 55 for several months to get the tank going and then later relocate them in the Rummy's Tank...I donno where to go really.....
Natalie, I'm heading out in a few moments, will be back online tomorrow and respond in detail. Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you. By the way, algae is not going to cause fish deaths. This was a case of stress for probably several reasons. Later, B.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:52 PM   #26
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you.
I'd never think that of you!!!! I know you'll always be there with an advise if you have one and have time Thanks in advance!
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:20 PM   #27
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel079 View Post
I'm glad you're coming fwd with comments!!!
See that's what I mean - I just want to UNDERSTAND- Like I said the 45g Rummy tank is set up identical to the 55g Cardinal tank - Rummy's are perfectly fine, Cardinals dead....so obviously SOMETHING that I can't see or test for was off track somewhere and that lil 'trigger' is what I want to understand so I can (hopefully) prevent it in the future.

I am just really wondering (since it the ONLY difference I can see/ test in the tanks) if the fact that the 55g has hair algae is ANY indicator on what triggered the ick !?

Maybe you could also read my threat in the main forum 'Where to go from here' and see if you have any ideas there for me. I do want to restock the 55g eventually BUT what fish to start with. Org I wanted it a Tetra tank with Cory's, now non of them appear a good starter fish to me. So I was wondering for a good Company for the Rummy Tank, however place these new guys (after 1 week QT min) in the 55 for several months to get the tank going and then later relocate them in the Rummy's Tank...I donno where to go really.....
OK, read through the other thread, can't add to what 1077 suggested. After 1-2 weeks (2 weeks to be certain) with no fish in the tank, should be OK to add fish. The plants will manage (light on as usual, etc) and handle the new fish, just a few at first. Again, the algae had nothing to do with ich. Ich occurs when fish are stressed, always. I have noticed a couple spots when new fish are added; but if the fish in the tank are healthy and "happy" the spots disappear and no others occur, and without medication. But if the fish were highly stressed, or sensitive, not so lucky.

The pH will lower as this tank matures over the first 3+ months. Mine always do this. Tap water here is 6.8-7.0, no hardness (zero). Tanks lower to 6.0 and I keep them there. Cardinals are fine in this. But only added after 2-3 months when the tank is stable.

Some corydoras species are OK in a new tank, some not. The dwarf/pygmy species almost always seem to die in new tanks, but in established tanks I never lose one when they are introduced. I've never had problems with any of the spotted varieties in new tanks. C. panda are also highly sensitive, would wait for those. And except for cardinals and rummy, most of the tetra species seem to be fine. Depends upon which you want.

B.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:27 PM   #28
 
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Angel,
Sorry it took me so long to get here. Have been quite busy with holidays and family on this end.

A few things I'd like to address since you requested I add some input for you...

1. Malachite green is effective on fungal problems for 2 reasons, primarily the staining effect it offers. By blocking out the light from fungus it thus kills the fungus. This is also important to know because the staining in the water may also affect your plants. The staining in the water will block light that your plants need. If you notice any of your plants not doing so well I would strongly suggest you move them to a bucket of clean water and get some light on them. I understand how difficult it can be in a fully planted tank, the thought of digging up plants that were thriving... but that is really the only option when it comes to something like this.

2. As was already suggested by twistersmom, dose the meds once/day only. I would not suggest using it beyond the suggested treatment on the bottle. If it says 3 days, then end your treatment after 3 days, give the fish a few days to recover and if you still think its needed, I would strongly suggest trying to find a customer service or tech support number for the makers of the medication and ask them before using it for a longer period of time. Dosing meds beyond instructions on the bottles can make things worse, especially when dealing with formaldahyde... which is the formalin content in this med.

3. Added aeration in the tank is something I would strongly suggest until all meds are removed from the water and the temp is decreased to the normal temp range for that tank. Formalin will quickly deplete any tank of oxygen, and as was mentioned, warm water contains less oxygen... mix those two together and you could lose fish and plants both due to oxygen depletion.

4. Be prepared to add carbon to your filter at the end of treatment to help remove the meds. Do not rely on water changes alone. Formalin is clear in color, and there is no way to know that the meds are completely removed without the use of carbon and good circulation. I would keep the carbon in the filter for 1 - 2 wks beyond medication just to be safe. Some meds are not as easily removed as others.

I hope your fish have been ok thus far... let me know if there is anything more I can do to help.

Good luck to you!
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:02 PM   #29
 
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Thanks Byron!
Yea its gonna be lil over 2 weeks before I get any new fish. However I'm debating hard to just set up a 10g QT for the new fish, so then at least the plants in the 55g wouldn't be affected that bad again IF anything happens which it better not

I just really do not know who to 'pick' to start stocking the 55g...Here's a list of fish I eventually would like to keep between the 45g (that has the Rummy's in it) and the empty 55g.... IMO non of these are a good fish to start establish the battled 55g over the next few months now!?

Cardinal Tetra’s
Rummy Nose
Emperor Tetra’s
Silver Hatchetfish
Blue Tetra (Mimagoniates microlepis )
Dawn Tetra (Aphyocharax paraguayensis )
Glass Catfish
Honey Gourami
Cory (C. trillineatus)
Pencilfish


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Old 11-28-2009, 08:06 PM   #30
 
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@bettababy
Thanks I had done all this (Minus plant removal). However any advise is too late, as posted prior they all passed 2 days ago.
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