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gourami problems!!!

This is a discussion on gourami problems!!! within the Tropical Fish Diseases forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by Kaddock Well shoot. Do you think it still makes sense to add some when adding new fish to help smooth the ...

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Old 02-09-2011, 05:11 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by Kaddock View Post

Well shoot. Do you think it still makes sense to add some when adding new fish to help smooth the transition?

No. The only useful thing it does is accelerate recovery rate of uninfected injuries. Other than that, it's pointless.

Quote:
I guess I figured the labyrinth breathers where more hardy given the fact that the labyrinth system is designed for low oxygen water, is it not? Weird. Well thanks for the info. I guess I'll stick with my Prime for water changes instead of stress coat. I've seen stress coat do some amazing things though, so I still love it!
Exactly. Prime is the only chemical I'd add on long-term basis, nothing else. Trouble with aloe vera is it also produces excessive slime. The fish are able to regenerate their slime coat on a normal rate without the need of slime coat.

Quote:
According to the MSDS:
Water 88 - 91%
Formaldehyde 4 - 6%
Methyl Alcohol <1 – 2%
Acriflavine Hydrochloride <2%
9-Aminoacridine <2%

This medication is mostly designed for parasites but is also highly effective against bacteria. According to a study I read on fin rot and scarlet this stuff is highly recommended, especially since it does not hurt inverts (that sounds nice, but doesn't matter for this tank).

Which study was it? Any link to it? I wonder which invertebrate they tested this on. I've kept many snails and a lot of them are extremely sensitive to traces of formaldehyde. That is toxic to them.

I can see why it is effective against bacterial infections. The alcohol and acriflavine do have negative impact on bacteria. It may be useful here. Worth a try. Just for reference though...If you have already used another med prior to finding this recommendation, then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt.

If you do plan to switch to that med, you will have to remove the salt and give the fish 3-day break. Salt and formaldehyde don't mix. The combination quickly kills the fish.


Quote:
I haven't tried Maracyn, but I can check. In the past few months I've used Methylene Blue, Kanaplex, Fungus Cure, Triple Sulfa, and Erythromycin. These where not all in this tank, in fact this tank is always the healthiest of the three. I used most of those in my 28 gallon (over a period of time), with no effect. After culling several fish I've had no further problems. I used most of these medications in my 10 gal planted tank as well... The fish in that tank have been battling red and rotted fins for quite some time with no results from any of those meds. That's a whole other story though. I take very good care of all of my tanks, doing water changes at least once a week and testing quality once a week. I'm no expert though obviously...
Erythromycin alone cannot solve infections. It is designed for gram-positive bacteria. Most of the infections, however, are gram-negative bacteria so you need to combine it with minocycline to make it work. Either the combination of both or Maracyn Plus will do the job.

The resulting hemorrhagic septicemia is often secondary to parasitic infestation. Have you ever encountered parasites before? If there were parasites spotted before, those need to be eliminated first before you hit the bacterial infection. Unfortunately, parasites do serve as a gateway for bacterial infections. They puncture the skin of your fish leaving tiny blood vessels exposed, thus, allowing the bad bacteria (pseudomonas, aeromonas and flexibacter, all of which are always present in every tank) to infiltrate the bloodstream and infect the fish.

The other causes of blood streaking would be abnormally high temperature and very low oxygen levels. I had two comet goldfish at one time kept in the pond. It was extremely hot weather and I suddenly noticed my comets suffering a severe case of hemorrhaging. They were immediately moved to a hospital tank. All it took was dosing salt, aerating the water well and doing 3 100% water changes for them to completely recover within 24 hours.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:39 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Which study was it? Any link to it? I wonder which invertebrate they tested this on. I've kept many snails and a lot of them are extremely sensitive to traces of formaldehyde. That is toxic to them.
Well, I'm going to try the aqua pro-cure in my 38 gal with the gourami and see if any changes. Please give me more of your great advice first though! I will be doing water changes tomorrow and then was planning on administering the meds. I haven't added salt since the water change last weekend, and have done a 25% WC mid-week. The meds say right on the label, copper free, reef & invert safe, effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria. Oh, and also: Warning: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. Seriously? Sound good to me! I am still nervous about using this in my ten gallon, but really want to! Do you think it would kill flower shrimp or assassin snails that live in my tank? Perhaps if it does I can get this company to send me new ones!

I couldn't find the specific one I saw before, but here is a detailed report on treating that also states what I read before (this one could be slightly biased... it's published by the manufacturer):

http://www.fishvet.com/Columnaris.pdf

"Aqua Pro-Cure and Revive are both a blended mixture of several components to treat this and other diseases. Acriflavine-MS and Metro-MS are single compound medications, specifically acriflavine neutral and metronidazole respectively, which will also bring this disease under control. Please note that Aqua Pro-Cure and Revive are reef and invertebrate safe which makes them the treatment of choice for such an aquarium."

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I can see why it is effective against bacterial infections. The alcohol and acriflavine do have negative impact on bacteria. It may be useful here. Worth a try. Just for reference though...If you have already used another med prior to finding this recommendation, then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt.

If my new medication will react to salt, wouldn't it be better to just not dose with the salt for three days before using the medication?

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
If you do plan to switch to that med, you will have to remove the salt and give the fish 3-day break. Salt and formaldehyde don't mix. The combination quickly kills the fish.


How can I be sure the salt has been eliminated? Just a large WC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Erythromycin alone cannot solve infections. It is designed for gram-positive bacteria. Most of the infections, however, are gram-negative bacteria so you need to combine it with minocycline to make it work. Either the combination of both or Maracyn Plus will do the job.
I've never looked in to gram-positive or negative before. Now I have learned a bit about my enemy by looking it up, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
The resulting hemorrhagic septicemia is often secondary to parasitic infestation. Have you ever encountered parasites before? If there were parasites spotted before, those need to be eliminated first before you hit the bacterial infection. Unfortunately, parasites do serve as a gateway for bacterial infections. They puncture the skin of your fish leaving tiny blood vessels exposed, thus, allowing the bad bacteria (pseudomonas, aeromonas and flexibacter, all of which are always present in every tank) to infiltrate the bloodstream and infect the fish.
I've dosed all of my tanks with Prazi-pro in the past month or so. Would that be enough? Honestly, I've not seen any signs of parasites that I can easily identify. This new medication is for parasites anyway though.The bacterial problems I have (aside from the gourami) are in my ten gallon planted tank. The scarlet is usually on the tip of their fins, and will disappear quickly if a drop of Methylene blue is directly administered, or sometimes after a good water change. This is on my guppies, who have also suffered the occasional whiteness on their fins with rot, but are slowly coming out of it. I need one last attack to just finish it! There is one fish in the tank that is a different story, a black skirted tetra. the other tetras have minor issues similar to the guppies, but seem to be better at fighting it off. This one has red streaks running along his caudal fin. These also fade in the same way as the scarlet that comes with the rot. Are your thinking that could be a parasite indicator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
The other causes of blood streaking would be abnormally high temperature and very low oxygen levels. I had two comet goldfish at one time kept in the pond. It was extremely hot weather and I suddenly noticed my comets suffering a severe case of hemorrhaging. They were immediately moved to a hospital tank. All it took was dosing salt, aerating the water well and doing 3 100% water changes for them to completely recover within 24 hours.
Well, the tank is below eighty degrees F, and is planted. I don't think they have much trouble breathing, but sometimes I will run the pump near the surface for an hour or two at night to give them an oxygen boost. I just try not to run it much since the plants need their CO2! That's a great recovery story. What I need to make it a reality is an extra tank.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:59 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Kaddock View Post
Well, I'm going to try the aqua pro-cure in my 38 gal with the gourami and see if any changes. Please give me more of your great advice first though! I will be doing water changes tomorrow and then was planning on administering the meds. I haven't added salt since the water change last weekend, and have done a 25% WC mid-week. The meds say right on the label, copper free, reef & invert safe, effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria. Oh, and also: Warning: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. Seriously? Sound good to me! I am still nervous about using this in my ten gallon, but really want to! Do you think it would kill flower shrimp or assassin snails that live in my tank? Perhaps if it does I can get this company to send me new ones!
Just remove all your invertebrates as a precaution.

Formaldehyde is a known carcinogenic hence the warning.

Quote:
If my new medication will react to salt, wouldn't it be better to just not dose with the salt for three days before using the medication?
I did indicate before that salt should be removed before you start using Aqua Pro-Cure. Doing a series of water changes will remove the salt. Small traces left may not be enough to produce a lethal effect with formaldehyde.

Quote:
How can I be sure the salt has been eliminated? Just a large WC?
Water changes.

Quote:
I've dosed all of my tanks with Prazi-pro in the past month or so. Would that be enough? Honestly, I've not seen any signs of parasites that I can easily identify. This new medication is for parasites anyway though.The bacterial problems I have (aside from the gourami) are in my ten gallon planted tank. The scarlet is usually on the tip of their fins, and will disappear quickly if a drop of Methylene blue is directly administered, or sometimes after a good water change. This is on my guppies, who have also suffered the occasional whiteness on their fins with rot, but are slowly coming out of it. I need one last attack to just finish it! There is one fish in the tank that is a different story, a black skirted tetra. the other tetras have minor issues similar to the guppies, but seem to be better at fighting it off. This one has red streaks running along his caudal fin. These also fade in the same way as the scarlet that comes with the rot. Are your thinking that could be a parasite indicator?
Usually? This has been a regular occurrence? Only parasites would be capable of repeating this otherwise, they would not have suffered infections constantly.

I need to eat breakfast first and be back. My mind is a bit jumpy.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:53 PM   #14
 
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Just remove all your invertebrates as a precaution.
Well crap, I have nowhere to put them. I guess I'll be making a quarantine kritter keeper. I just hope that they won't be too shocked and die anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I did indicate before that salt should be removed before you start using Aqua Pro-Cure. Doing a series of water changes will remove the salt. Small traces left may not be enough to produce a lethal effect with formaldehyde.
Got it, I was just asking because you also indicated "...then give the fish a break first for 3 days at least. Do daily water changes on that period along with salt". I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I will be three water changes away from adding the salt as of today, so I will probably wait until after the next WC to medicate.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Usually? This has been a regular occurrence? Only parasites would be capable of repeating this otherwise, they would not have suffered infections constantly.
It has not only been regular, it has been nearly constant (at least since last fall). I have not been able to eliminate this problem in my ten gallon with any medication I've used. I've been stepping up water changes, have had near perfect water parameters... It's insanely frustrating. I have tried prazi-pro, but I didn't heavily dose. If you think it's parasites, I suppose this pro-cure stuff might be the best bet, since it's recommended for parasites and bacteria. Do you think that the parasites described on this product (effective for marine & freshwater velvet, dinoflagellates, gill flukes, and bacterial fin rot, and safe for nitrifying bacteria) are the ones we need to eliminate? I definitely see velvety objects. Sometimes the fin rot areas have a string hanging off that dies when I treat. Could that be part of the bacterial infection, or does it seem to be positively parasitic?

I'm sorry I'm barraging you, it's just that I have been battling this with the aid of this forum and two fish stores... None of them have ever brought up any of the stuff you've said so far!!! I am very curious to try your recommendations, since no one else seems to know what I'm dealing with, even though they've given me so many ideas...

Last edited by Kaddock; 02-14-2011 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:04 AM   #15
 
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So if you're pointing the flashlight on your fish, you also see golden film on their flanks? That would explain possible velvet which is one of the most difficult things to treat. I haven't managed to treat this issue successfully so far but they suggest copper for this. Not a fan of copper-based meds though because I had inverts to take care of.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:24 AM   #16
 
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I don't see any gold on the flanks. The red is only occasional on the guppies, but seems to stay on the tetra's caudal fin. On the guppies it appears to have 3 dimensions, like a little bump. It always disappears after a WC or medication. On the tetra it is very light red streaks on the caudal fin, that fade and come back, not sure what affects them.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:36 PM   #17
 
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The aqua-pro cure has worked great on my gourami! I am going to put all my inverts in the hospital tank I set up a week ago, and dose the ten gallon now! Wish me luck!
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:13 PM   #18
 
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Well Lupin, I spoke too soon. I will be trying Maracyn Two next.

So the difference between Maracyn and Maracyn two is that they kill gram positive or negative bacteria, respectively? How do I know when a bacterial infection is one or the other? Both Maracyns say they are recommended for the same thing from what I can find...

What it Maracyn Plus for?
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:53 PM   #19
 
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Maracyn Plus is broad spectrum. I think I'd go for that one.

What happened though? The Aqua Pro Cure didn't work? They're getting worse?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:32 PM   #20
 
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I pretty much got the same results that I got from other medications. The obvious symptoms go away, but return quite quickly.
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