Female Danio tilting when swimming

bettababy

Satu,
What are the instructions on the medication packaging for dosage? Follow those and be careful not to overdose. If you don't have or can't find the instruction please send me the manufacturer name of the medication and I will look it up for you. Different companies use different fillers in their medications and different concentrations which are all protected by patent laws, thus making each manufacturers medication an individual, with its own specific dosing instructions. The only way I can give safe and proper dosing instructions is to know for sure which manufacturer made your specific medication. Any information on the packaging that you can give to me will help me track this down for you.

satu55555

Hi Dawn,

Thank you for your reply.

The packaging has instructions, but when it comes to dosage it just says a doctor prescribes a suitable dosage. The manufacturer is Actavis (Norway). The instructions that I have on it from the doctor are "fake" as it was prescribed for me because the doctor cannot prescribe it for fish directly. I'm lucky to know a person who would prescribe medication like this for the use on fish. She knows it.

Lorraine is clearly getting worse. She just sits on the bottom of the tank most of the time now.

I gave her a metronidazole bath this morning and then put some of the medication in the tank water. I put 250mg for the 25 L (6.6 US gallons). She did not eat any blood worm.

I so hope I could somehow help her more.

Satu

satu55555

Hi Dawn,

Here's what I found on the internet about the medications.

The filler ingredients in the tablets are Croscarmellose sodium, lactose monohydrate, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone, magnesium stearate, corn starch, hypromellose, macrogol 400, titanium dioxide.

On the internet it says that one 500mg tablet contains 50mg lactose monohydrate.

The instructions are in Finnish on the internet for these Metronidazole Actavis tablets as follows. I thought the following problems are closest to protozoan.

Amebiasis


Adults:
Acute ameba dysenteriae: 750 mg three times a day for 10 days.
Liver abscess: 500 - 750 mg three times a day for 10 days.
Children> 10 years: 400-800 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.
Children 7-10 years: 200-400 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.
3-7 years are: 100-200 mg of 4 times a day for 5-10 days.
Children 1-3 years: 100-200 mg 3 times a day for 5-10 days.

Alternatively, expressed as milligrams per kilogram body weight: 35-50 mg / kg per day divided into three
doses 5-10 days, a daily dose of up to 2 400 mg of

Giardiasis

Adults: 500 mg twice a day for 6 days.
Children> 10 years: 2 000 mg once daily for 3 days, or 400 mg three times
per day for 5 days, or 500 mg twice daily for 7-10 days.
Children 7-10 years: 1 000 mg once daily for 3 days.
Children 3-7 years: 600-800 mg once daily for 3 days.
Children 1-3 years: 500 mg once daily for 3 days.

Alternatively, expressed in milligrams per kilogram body weight: 15-40 mg / kg / day in 2-3 divided doses.

I'm not quite sure how much to give based on these as these are based on the body mass and not the amount of water. If you understand these better, please let me know.

Satu

satu55555

Hi,

I wanted to put an update here. Lorraine was doing some kind of sudden moves a little while ago. Now she sits all the time on the bottom of the tank and a couple of times she got up and did some fast moves, calmed, did fast moves and sat down again. She wasn't swimming far, just within a small area 6" x 6" area, but it seemed like she was having some problems. I tried to take a video, but she didn't move anywhere for the camera.

I'm a bit at a loss here.

Thank you again.
Satu

bettababy

Satu,
Sorry I couldn't get here sooner, we're on different time zones which makes this a bit more difficult.

Dosing for 6.6 gallons would be 150mg and only dose once every other day. If you need to do a water change during this time do it just before adding the next dose so the medication stays at full strength.

I know this is rough for you, mostly because fish medications are so difficult to get in your area. Not all human meds are the equivalent of fish medications, which makes this even more difficult. All we can do is our best with what we've got sometimes... I am hoping she pulls through, but if she doesn't, don't rush out and get a new fish right away. Wait a few wks, watch your other fish and be sure none of them are also sick. If that should happen please let me know and I'll walk you through the steps for a preventive treatment for a new fish before it goes into the main tank so you can hopefully avoid having to go through this again.

Keep me posted.

satu55555

Hi Dawn,

Thank you for your reply. No worries about the time difference. It's not within our control anyway.

I did a partial water change last night to reduce the amount of medication in the tank to about 150mg.

It's so hard to sit around and see Lorraine getting worse. Now she's just laying on her side and when she hardly attempts to swim, the swimming is spasmic. Isn't there anything more I can do for her? Stronger medicated baths maybe? I'm a little worried if we have the right diagnosis. I have to be pretty much sitting on my hands not to try to do something to help her.

I would not be getting a new fish too soon. The fish are fine with 4 danios in the tank. I will let you know if I get a new fish at some point or if someone else starts to have symptoms of something.

I wanted to ask at the same time here about euthanasia, not because of Lorraine as such, but generally. What is your opinion about clove oil? I have not used it before, but if I have to do this thing with a fish, I would like to. I was told by a person who has an aquarium shop of her own that clove oil feels like burning the gills to the fish. I'm not able to do any of these things myself, but to save my husband in these situations, I would like the method to be as smooth for the fish and him. Well, the fish have not suffered ever from it, but my husband has. It's hard for him.

Thank you again.
Satu

bettababy

Satu,
First of all, I feel for you... I know how difficult it can be to watch over a sick fish. Unfortunately sometimes there is only so much that can be done to help and it takes time for medications to be effective. Also unfortunate is that sometimes in spite of all we are able to do with medications and water changes, etc. there are times when we simply can't save the fish.

I am confident in my diagnosis, as all of the symptoms you have listed and the video that you posted all indicate a protozoan problem. I have been doing this for a living for many yrs and some things are quite obvious to me when I see them. There is a lot that goes into the process of diagnosis, many things to be factored in alongside of the actual "symptoms" we see. Age of the fish, species of the fish, the environment in which it is kept, foods and general health, and the list goes on... This is why it is so important to seek help from someone with a vast amount of experience in such things before jumping too soon to dump various medications into a tank with a sick fish.

Too many people now days attempt to diagnose and treat sick fish without such help and more often than not the end result is dead fish... either from misdiagnosis or from using a wrong (or unsafe) medication. These problems are further complicated in some places due to a lack of appropriate medications available in a given area. Many people are impatient, feeling that it is better to do something than nothing at all while seeking help. This tends to only lead to more problems. Patience and getting the appropriate help are always the best solution.

Right now, in your case, all we can do is wait and hope we caught the problem fast enough for the medication to do its job. There are many factors in fish illness that are unseen and impossible to monitor, and those things contribute to how fast a fish gets well and even whether or not that is possible. The internet only further complicates that issue. Without the ability to do lab work the diagnosis process can take longer and be much more difficult. Without the ability to see what is happening inside the fish through tests that people would normally utilize for human illness to track organ function and etc. that again complicates things. We can only see so much, and thus we work with what we can.

In regards to euthanasia, clove oil is typically a safe thing to use if it's done right, but there are reasons why I prefer the method of freezing in a baggie of tank water instead for such a thing. Clove oil is what we use as an anesthetic for surgery in fish. It is about the only safe method for such things. Of the few other options that are out there, it is the safest with the least amount of risk of death. The trick is in knowing how to use it properly, which takes time, practice, and experience to learn.

Clove oil puts the fish to sleep, and if enough of it is used the fish goes comatose until death sets in. The drawbacks of using clove oil are largely about the residue it leaves behind... its an oil, which means that it can't be removed with just water or a safe chemical for fish. Whatever container it is used in can no longer be used for keeping live, healthy fish without risk of their death. Its messy, it smells very strong and is hard to clean up. Since clove oil puts the fish to sleep before death it is seen as the humane way to euthanize, however, freezing the fish in a baggie of water does the same exact thing without the mess or worry that not enough was used, which can prolong the suffering of the fish. There is no dosing method that works for all fish for such a thing, so getting enough clove oil to actually cause death in a specific fish can be tricky. If not enough is used then the fish eventually wakes back up and the process begins again. I see that as forced/prolonged suffering.

Going into a zip lock baggie of water and immediately into a freezer does a couple of things without causing the fish to suffer. The darkness of a freezer helps to keep the fish calm, something that doesn't happen with the clove oil method. The cold temperature slows down the fish's metabolism which means it requires less oxygen while it is alive, so the water in the bag is sufficient until death sets in, thus no suffering from suffocation as I have heard some people claim. As the metabolism shuts down the fish goes to sleep, the same as with clove oil, and it then never wakes up as the organs freeze and shut down completely.

Personally, I find the freezer method to be the most practical and the most humane way to euthanize, and the least traumatic for both fish and person who has to do it. In a freezer you can set it in and walk away, go back in an hour and remove it and discard it to the garbage, thus no need to watch the fish suffer til the end to be sure its dead and no question about whether it is actually dead or not. Once the water in the bag is frozen then death is a fact, no guess work involved.

Keep me posted on your fish's condition and I will continue to do all I can to help. Best of luck to you!

satu55555

Here's a new video of Lorraine. It't not the best, but gives a little bit of an idea. You cannot really see much of the spasms on it.
Thank you.
Satu

satu55555

Thank you Dawn. I just noticed you had replied as I was putting the new video on a message.

I know you're a good professional to give advice regarding fish. That's why I ask you and not someone with no experience and knowledge. You must be so popular amongst fish people. We are big fans! Me, my hubby and all our fish.

The reason I have not used the freezer method is because I read on the internet once that the fish can feel getting frozen in the freezer and it hurts to get cold let alone frozen. Living in Finland I have been very cold sometimes so I know what that feels like. Are you absolutely sure that it is not painful in any possible way to a fish? Because then I could consider that method in the future.

Anyway, I'll sit on my hands now and hope for the best for my fish. I'll do a water change tomorrow morning and add medication to keep the level up at the same time.

Thank you again!
Satu

satu55555

Hi,

Lorraine has got worse again. She's now pretty much only laying on her side in the tank and when she rarely tries to move, she ends up doing uncontrollable moves and ends up back on her side. The only way to know that she's still alive is because she breathes from time to time and her eyes move. It really breaks my heart to see her like that.

Should I make a decision whether to continue waiting or not? It doesn't look too good. What are the chances that she might make it since since the medication was started she's continued to get worse? Shouldn't she at least have stopped getting worse by now?

Thank you again.
Satu