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Black Skirt Tetras have ich

This is a discussion on Black Skirt Tetras have ich within the Tropical Fish Diseases forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Ok, for starters, I totally disagree with the statement about not using carbon except to remove meds. Carbon removes a lot more, and I ...

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Black Skirt Tetras have ich
Old 12-25-2007, 04:01 AM   #11
 
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Ok, for starters, I totally disagree with the statement about not using carbon except to remove meds. Carbon removes a lot more, and I have done enough trial and error tests with it to be convinced it does work. The only time I don't suggest using carbon is if you know enough about keeping a naturally balanced environment with enough plants to help reduce waste levels. Filtration units are made to work with carbon, and if you remove it, you remove one of the things the filter was created to do, which can complicate everything else. For a beginner, carbon is there to help as a back up until you understand the environment you have created, how it works, what it needs, etc. and are able to provide it.
When it comes to using copper or anything with copper in it to treat illness, I say that's like playing with fire if you don't know what you're doing. Copper can be great, if it's a last resort and everything in the tank can handle it. By everything I mean not only fish (not all fish can handle even traces of copper which can be absorbed and retained in various parts of the tank) but also live plants in the tank... copper is very harsh and tends to kill most live plants (which can create a sudden waste problem; as plants die they break down into ammonia, which will pollute the tank; a large die off of plants can cause toxic situations for fish quickly) and copper is also deadly to any invert in the tank (snails, shrimps, etc) Scaleless fishes tend to not be able to handle even trace amounts.. the list goes on. You may not have these animals in the tank now, but if you use the copper now, unless you break the tank down completely, bleach it out, then start it over... you will never be able to keep inverts or any animals sensitive to copper, and you may struggle to keep live plants alive, even years into the future. All it takes is the smallest trace amount to cause massive death in anything that can't handle it, and those trace amounts can be absorbed into the silicone seals in any tank, filter parts, gravel, some types of rock, plastic or silk plants, any decorations...
So... in leu of all the conflicting info on copper that you've read... would you risk it if you didn't have to? Would you be prepared for the massive amount of destruction it can cause, and would you be ready to limit yourself on future inhabitants unless you broke it down to sterilize that tank? If copper is really something you need to use for a severe illness problem, my advice is to do it in a quarantine tank after making sure your specific fish can handle it first.
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Old 12-25-2007, 10:44 AM   #12
 
My decision to use copper to treat ich was primarily based on this website:
http://madhunag.tripod.com/diseases.html

"Coppersafe: Very safe when used in the recommended dosage. Kills Ich, Flukes, Anchor Worms and Velvet parasites. Works slowly, a drawback (takes 21 days in some cases), but it does kill them. If treated for less than 21 days, Ich will come back. (Also true for other anti-parasite meds, by the way.) Not toxic to any fish. Sometimes does impact delicate plants, but they recover quickly after the Coppersafe is removed. If I had an expensive prized plant, I might remove it to a 5-gallon aquarium for safekeeping while I treated with Coppersafe, but in actual practice I've not had problems with it. You could put the plant(s) in a 5-gallon tank, add YG, place near a strong light (a north window, perhaps), and the plants would think they've been to a health spa. Kills shrimp and some snails. Safe for cycle bacteria. Compatible with other Mardel medications such as Maracyn I and II.

Salt/Heat: 1 tablespoon salt per 5 gallons of water, 87*F temperature. Safe for 99% of fish, completely non-toxic to fishkeeper. Safe for cycle bacteria. Works slowly (21 days) to kill parasites, but well tolerated by most fish and shrimp. Not recommended for Tetras, Corys or smooth-skinned fish such as Kuhli Loaches and Clown Loaches. If the fish can tolerate heat/salt, it's the treatment of choice. Rough on plants, which usually show visible damage after 21 days, but which grow back after salt is removed and temps lowered. Treatment of choice for Guppys, Mollys, Platys, Swordtails. For live bearers salt can be added at 1 table spoon per 1 gallon of water. Mollys can take salt up to 1/2 cup per 5 gallons, which kills external parasites very quickly.

and my grandmothers recommendation, she used copper to treat her fish for over 25 years with no ill effects.

I have both Tetras and Corys, no live plants and no invertebrates so copper seemed like the best choice. Ultimately it worked like a charm and the fish are doing well.
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Old 12-25-2007, 10:56 AM   #13
 
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Just thought I'd say that my fish have no signs of ich now after treating them with QuickCure for 3 days. I am continuing the treatment for 2 weeks just to make sure it stays gone. Thanks for all of the help and suggestions!
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Old 12-25-2007, 01:54 PM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother
My decision to use copper to treat ich was primarily based on this website:
http://madhunag.tripod.com/diseases.html

"Coppersafe: Very safe when used in the recommended dosage. Kills Ich, Flukes, Anchor Worms and Velvet parasites. Works slowly, a drawback (takes 21 days in some cases), but it does kill them. If treated for less than 21 days, Ich will come back. (Also true for other anti-parasite meds, by the way.) Not toxic to any fish. Sometimes does impact delicate plants, but they recover quickly after the Coppersafe is removed. If I had an expensive prized plant, I might remove it to a 5-gallon aquarium for safekeeping while I treated with Coppersafe, but in actual practice I've not had problems with it. You could put the plant(s) in a 5-gallon tank, add YG, place near a strong light (a north window, perhaps), and the plants would think they've been to a health spa. Kills shrimp and some snails. Safe for cycle bacteria. Compatible with other Mardel medications such as Maracyn I and II.

Salt/Heat: 1 tablespoon salt per 5 gallons of water, 87*F temperature. Safe for 99% of fish, completely non-toxic to fishkeeper. Safe for cycle bacteria. Works slowly (21 days) to kill parasites, but well tolerated by most fish and shrimp. Not recommended for Tetras, Corys or smooth-skinned fish such as Kuhli Loaches and Clown Loaches. If the fish can tolerate heat/salt, it's the treatment of choice. Rough on plants, which usually show visible damage after 21 days, but which grow back after salt is removed and temps lowered. Treatment of choice for Guppys, Mollys, Platys, Swordtails. For live bearers salt can be added at 1 table spoon per 1 gallon of water. Mollys can take salt up to 1/2 cup per 5 gallons, which kills external parasites very quickly.

and my grandmothers recommendation, she used copper to treat her fish for over 25 years with no ill effects.

I have both Tetras and Corys, no live plants and no invertebrates so copper seemed like the best choice. Ultimately it worked like a charm and the fish are doing well.
WOW! I couldn't even read through all of that website's outside links just because the information there was such a mess and so much of it was inaccurate to say the least. Anyone using this website as a guideline for fish illnesses is in for a world of hurt and expense both in meds and dead animals and even plants. I found a lot of "assumed" information there, a lot of information I know positively to be untrue, and the rest so mixed up that even I and a few professionals had a hard time sorting through it.

The best advice I can give to anyone reading that website... lose the URL asap! Find information with some kind of credentials to it. Also, remember that anyone can build a website and write anything they want on it, that doesn't make it true. I know of children under the age of 10 who can build a web page and write their own opinions on it.... that doesn't mean they're accurate or know what they're talking about. I have found online that there are way too many of these kinds of websites. Keeping a fish tank does not make someone an expert on fish, especially when dealing with illness and medications. Many of the things suggested on that website would be highly toxic to many animals, fresh and salt water both.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention so we all know to avoid this site in the future. I would be interested in knowing the specific credentials of the person who wrote the material contained there.
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:18 PM   #15
 
Yes, every forum and website, on virtually every subject on the Net, has their resident "professionals" and of course, their opinions are ALWAYS correct and the ONLY way things can be done, otherwise else death and destruction will reign down upon you.
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Old 12-25-2007, 07:35 PM   #16
 
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There is no opinion involved in the statement that copper is toxic to all inverts and a large number of fish and animals.. or that it leaves residue behind. What I read on that website was not what I'd perceieve to be "professional" opinion or fact, just opinion.
When I define professional from hobbyist I am looking for formal education on the subject of fish biology, icthyology, and the medications used to treat illness, etc I'm talking about the difference between fact and hypothesis.
There were also statements made about "the danger in using formalin" which is also not based on scientific fact. When I make statements that I call "fact" it is because there is scientific evidence to support it.
So, online or off, it doesn't matter to me... fact is fact and opinion is opinion, and there is a distinct difference between the two. The statements made on that website tried to claim the information as fact, but for anyone who knows the science behind it, it's quite obviously some fact mixed in with a lot of opinion.
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