What to stock my 40gl - Page 5 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #41 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 08:55 AM
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This is a tough debate. My LFS (and local is a 40 minute drive...) is pretty good about being knowledgable and fair to his animals. That being said, I saw one of his workers scoop a dead anemone out of one of the large reef tanks yesterday. I work in retail lumber & millwork sales and customers (more likely than not) will not take my advice. If I tell them they need a certain window to meet escape egress, and they can only fit a smaller window, they give the reasoning: "what the Inspector doesn't know..."

My point is just as Terry said, the responsible fishkeepers are on this forum, or any forum, and we don't make up the entire population. Even I took my LFS's advice and put a Hippo in a 46 gallon tank, only to find that was way too small...so I upgraded to a 150. Still might be too small, but I ran out of room (my wife gave me 6 feet x 24 inches to work with).

My wife is a very responsible animal activist...we have two rescue dogs that she centered us buying our home around, complete with fenced in yard and quiet neighborhood for walks. She recently alienated her Best Friend because of the way they treat their dog (keep it crated all day, haven't gotten her spayed yet). She will tell people off if they buy dogs from breeders or pet stores. She sounds like Bob Barker some days, "remember to spay or neuter your pets!" When Michael Vick signed with the Philedaphia Eagles, my wife wanted to ban Dunkin Donuts, because they were a corporate sponsor. Do you think that Dunkin felt that impact? I doubt it. They still sold coffee and Vick still signed with the Eagles. The efforts of a few are always outweighed by the ways of the many.

Back to my LFS. A lot of what he buys is stuff that will attract customers to look. He'll have Naso Tangs and Achilles Tangs, while the average fishkeeper in my area is 29 gallon-90 gallon tanks. And I know that he'll tell someone that 90 is fine for a Naso tang. And at the size they are now, maybe that's true. Maybe for a little while, until with one whip of its tail the tang is already across the tank. But he has stock that he has to sell. If he sells someone a Tang and it passes on due to inexperienced fishkeeping, he sells another one. I know that it sounds barbaric, but the LFS owner needs to feed his kids, and keep his business moving along.

This brings me to the responsible fishkeeper. I now make sure that I am providing the correct enviroment for my fish and inverts. I learned that here. My LFS has personally told me that forums are too opinionated and often give false info. I know that when my friend bought two seahorses and I told him they wouldn't last a week, the LFS told him these were the "hardiest seahorses he has ever seen. Eating like crazy." They died two weeks later. I tell my friend that a Tomini and a Kole won't survive in a 75 together, and low-and-behold, they fought until they were too stressed to live. My LFS told me that a Desjardini and a Purple would get along fine in my tank. I am not going to try.

There will always be irresponsible Fishkeepers, Dog owners (Vick), Cat owners that keep way too many cats to feed, Reptile keepers...etc. Mark and Terry are right. Some people just want what they want. In a perfect world, everyone would stop buying Moorish Idols (for example). But people LOVE the way these fish look, and as a centerpiece to their aquarium, will take the risk of them not surviving. Tons of Fish every year are flushed because owners aren't properly educating themselves before purchasing them.

But if I don't buy that Achilles, that is one less that is taken out of the Ocean to replace it.

Nothing good happens fast in an Aquarium

My 30 Gallon Long Marine Tank
My son's 20 gallon FW Community
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post #42 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 01:39 PM
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the shame of the game is, we do it to ourselves. this is where i disagree with everyone who believes 1 person cant make a difference. it has to start somewhere, and it has to start with 1 person. correct, we most likely wont be able to keep every un-educated fish keeper from buying marlins for their 5 gallon tanks but if enough of us start educating ourselves and talking with others thats the best we can do. just like you cant take all the bad drivers off the road, im sure it doesnt stop you from driving to work.

now put it in this perspective. fish die by the thousands in just poor collecting techniques. if the fish stores arnt importing as much the demand wont be as high. if we are able to save 2 fish out of those thousands that leads a chance for those 2 to breed producing another few hundred. i know im guilty of killing atleast 2 fish, so if we educate, stop buying livestock that you know wont work for our tanks and until we all make an honest attempt we wont know what will change.
we can start by cutting back on poluting. this ties back in with my opening sentence, "we do it to ourselves,"
heres the shame of the game,
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post #43 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 02:43 PM
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Onefish, the article you linked to points to the year 2030 as the year of extinction for our coral reefs. Very recently I read an article where scientific experts predict by the year 2030 our oceans will have been completley depleted of food fish with no hope of recovery if something isn't done *today*.

America's Oceans in Crisis (ActionBioscience)

If you don't stand up for something you'll fall for anything...
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post #44 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 03:53 PM
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Pasfur, thank you for clearing the air with anyone who may not understand our "unique friendship and mutual respect" for each other. Of all things debated here, I don't want anyone to think I am bashing or insulting anyone on purpose. If it happens, I apologize to anyone, that is not ever my intent.

Its a scary world out there, in many respects. Onefish2fish says it very well, and I thank you greatly for your recognition that 1 person CAN make a difference, somewhere. Any change that happens in our world, it all starts with 1 person, 1 idea, 1 goal. It may not always turn out the way we'd like, or that 1 person intended, but change always starts with 1. I like to believe I help by being 1 of those people, and I hope I am able to inspire others along the way.

The real world has shown us all that many things need to change for the simple survival of our planet and everything that exists here. This is but 1 change on that long list, and its a change we can all contribute to.

We are all familiar with fads... how quickly they start and change. I see this as a fad, as I have seen over the yrs how aquarium pets have changed in popularity. When the Nemo movie came out, there was a clown fish and anemone fad. When Shark Tales came out in theaters, there was a shark fad. Why then can't we start another fad when it comes to protecting our planet and the animals on it? One person can make that kind of difference, all it takes is the support of others to really catch on.

I recently made a phone call to the owner of the company that produces the "fish toilet". Not sure if anyone here has seen those online yet... but I called and asked this guy some very pointed questions, until he admitted he knows very little about any species of fish. I told him "shame on you" and asked how he felt knowing now that he was promoting the abuse of animals with his advertising of his invention, all so he could line his own pockets. It was a very interesting discussion, and in the end, he finally agreed I had some valid points and he was willing to consider some changes. He even asked me for some suggestions on how to improve the situation that I pointed out to him, to which I freely offered a few. That is 1 person making a difference. I maybe have not saved all goldfish from his toilet tanks, but I have saved a few. I slept better after that night, knowing that its an uphill battle but I was able to advance 1 step closer to the goal.

All I am asking for others to consider is that each of us can be that 1 person who makes 1 difference somewhere, and together that adds up to the many that are presently seen as undefeatable. There is power in numbers, nobody here has denied that. That tells me that at least the thousands of people on this forum offer a beginning... and if each of the thousands here can reach 1 or 2 others... that is another step.

I am very passionate about this topic, and I ask forgiveness from those who don't understand that passion. I cannot change who I am, how I feel, or why I feel the way I do. All I can do is try to open the door of understanding to others and hope that along the way someone else will either step up and help, in their own way... or walk through that door with me and actively help in the battle to save helpless animals as often as possible.

My friends continuously remind me that I can't save them all. I know thats a reality I can't beat, but like I respond to them... "I can at least die trying, and in the process, save as many as possible." That is my overall goal... to save as many as possible and encourage others to use what power they have to do the same thing.

As Onefish2fish said.. each one we don't buy is 1 less they take from the wild to replace it.

Dawn Moneyhan
Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
Juneau, WI
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post #45 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 03:58 PM
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That is a shame. I do believe that one person can make a difference. I just don't believe that difference is strong enough too offset the millions that don't know or don't care to know. The groups like PETA, CALA and the like have slowed the proccess, but many view them as extremists. Last year they wanted Fish to be renamed Sea Kittens; they said it was a cuter name, and people wouldn't want to eat them. Even my activist Wife laughed at that. It's hard to take a group like that serious.

We are the problem. We will drive one species after another into extinction, and when we aren't sastified killing species, we'll kill ecosystems. Pretty soon there will be another Ice Age or Giant Metoer or the Sun will explode and this will all start again. I know, dismal.

I wish that I made enough of a difference myself by not littering and making responsible fish choices and saving homeless pets. But the truth of it is that having an aquarium is a very selfish act of mine. If I didn't have the aquarium, then that's $10,000 the industry wouldn't have seen. It's not like this is Fish Rescue. I pay for these fish, corals and inverts. I supply the corporate with profits. At least with my pups, I just saved a stray mutt that would've been put down otherwise. Nobody profited from that but the mutt.

This might sound ridiculous to say on a fish only forum, but if we want to stop coral and fish collecting, we have to stop giving the industry money. Not enough of these creatures breed in captivity for us to go that route. If an owner of a LFS needs a pair of clowns, I would assume he would order a tang, a couple gobies, a few angels, some inverts to pad that order. My buying one fish may have resulted in placing a stock order.

I know OF2F. It's sad the state of our oceans and ecosystems. I wish there was more we could, but it looks inevitible...

Hate to sound so grim...

Nothing good happens fast in an Aquarium

My 30 Gallon Long Marine Tank
My son's 20 gallon FW Community
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post #46 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Let me be sure I am understanding you correctly. What you are saying, essentially, is that if I live in a small apartment and buy a pitt bull puppy and small crate, which has plenty of space in the apartment, with plans to buy a large house which would accommodate a larger crate for the adult dog... but then I lose my job and can't move... its ok to keep that adult dog in a puppy size crate? "

Ok please clairfy me on this, you mention a small crate in an apartment with plenty of space, being realistic once again, an adult dog should not be crated, this is ok as a puppy, for housetraining purposes, but normally once the chewing stage and housebreaking stage are over, there is no loner any need for a crate.
and do I think a dog whether big or small is good for a small apartment? again depending on the caregiver...,dog has sufficient food supply, clean water, and goes for regular walks, and gets needed attention, then absolutey do I think this dog is in good hands, small space or not.

I think we are going off topic here, and all I am saying is that, if a fishkeeper buys a fish and houses it in a smaller sized aquarium than recommended, and later upgrades to accomodate this fish, I don't see any fault at that, and yes I agree, that if circumstances change between "now and then" that there is a responsibility to act on this and any creatures needs.
I am an animal lover, and have many....my intentions are the best care I can give, and I do believe I give the best care possible within my means.
so if I were to house a tang in a 65 gallon while small and later upgrade to a larger size to accomodate, I don't see anything wrong with this, I never said, that if circumstances change and I shrugged my shoulders and said oh well, things happen, that this would be ok, of course I would either accomodate or do my best to find a proper accomodation.
All I am saying is that if I don't buy that fish in the LFS, I can guarantee you someone behind me will, with or without the proper care and space required.
Which brings me back to the original point, is that most people do have good intentions from the start, but what happens after that is what will determine whether this person is a responsible fishkeeper or not...
I do not believe in judging people until they have proved wrong is all I am saying
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post #47 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 08:56 PM

and by the way, I hope you are in no way taking this to offense, as I do happen to think you give great advice, as I have read some of your posts and think you are highly knowledgeable...but I do feel I can express my opinions and thoughts in this forum, and again, hope you are not thinking I am trying I am trying to argue with anyone. We all have different thoughts and opinions, but I do appreciate your advice and input
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post #48 of 49 Old 11-13-2009, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by terryap View Post
so if I were to house a tang in a 65 gallon while small and later upgrade to a larger size to accomodate, I don't see anything wrong with this
I understand the point you are making with this, but I do want to point out something for the casual reader. In the wild it has been reported that Tangs reach 70% of their adult size within 1 year. Anyone buying a Tang should carefully consider the species of Tang you are purchasing and its growth needs. This applies to any fish.

I recently considered the purchase of a Naso vlamingi for my 180. After researching its adult size and growth rate, I realized there is no possible way for me to rear this fish properly in a tank this small.
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post #49 of 49 Old 11-27-2009, 10:18 AM
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valintini puffers are good
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