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Longnose butterfly and Red General

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Longnose butterfly and Red General
Old 04-10-2008, 11:45 PM   #21
 
ok so longterm what can go in my 80, say I were to start all over, what would you put in an 80 and feel comfortable leaving in there for many years?
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:03 AM   #22
 
One last comment, again i am not trying to defy you just venting because I'm pissed I've spent like two grand and now you're telling me I can't put anything in an 80 gallon. My brother has a 55 gallon bowfront with two oscars, and they have been living healthy and happy for over three years, while it is messy because he feeds them live, space has never stressed them and they have adjusted according to the tank. Just wanted to throw that out there, maybe the longnose and foxface will do well.
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Old 04-11-2008, 07:01 AM   #23
 
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Melo- I think your brothers tank is a great example of what we are trying to communicate. It all depends on how you define success. If his Oscars live to be 6 years old, would you consider that to be successful? I would not. In order to thrive properly these fish would need a tank closer to 125 gallons in size.

Look, there are 2 schools of thought to fishkeeping. What CAN i get away with? And what SHOULD I do for my fish to live out a natural lifespan? I think we have a responsibility, especially in the marine hobby, to provide the fish with an environment they can thrive in and live out their natural life.

I was at a friends house yesterday. She has a 2 gallon desktop aquarium with a goldfish in it. Goldfish as easy to keep, so the fish looks "happy". It swims around and comes to the glass to feed and "look at people." Yet everyone experienced in this hobby knows that fish is being slowly tortured and will die long before necessary.

Maybe your fish will do well in an 80 gallon. This isn't a case of abuse. Its not like you have a 29 gallon tank. However, for long term sustained success over the life of the fish, you should give serious thought to planning an upgrade in tank size in the near future.
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Old 04-11-2008, 12:49 PM   #24
 
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Pasfur has given a very good answer to this one. 2 oscars in 55 gallons makes me cringe. I have 1 oscar, he's in 120 gallons by himself, and he's almost 12 yrs old... he's full grown at about 14 inches. I would ask that someone take a tape measure and figure out where two 14 inch fish would even be able to move around in 55 gallons. There won't be enough width in the tank for those fish to turn around properly, and what when they grow large enough to fight for territory? Or, as Pasfur has mentioned... what happens when those fish get sick and die at age 4? A healthy oscar of 3 - 4 yrs old shouldn't even fit into a tank of that size. IF they both fit in there, then I have to wonder how much damage has already been done.

Too many people are still of the belief that a fish will grow to the size of its environment. That simply isn't true. A fish will grow as large as the tank allows, but then water quality takes over and makes them sick. It starts out by stunting their growth, and at the same time causes extensive internal damage to their organs. Basically, they suffer until their bodies simply can't take it anymore and begin to shut down.
The other consequence of not keeping fish in proper size habitats is physical deformity. I saw the results of a guy raising a jack dempsy to full grown at 8 inches... in a 10 gallon tank. I wish now that I had taken pictures of it so others could see and learn to understand that there are some things you just don't do. With 100% water changes every day and the best of foods, the fish was very healthy.... but as he grew and ran out of space, his spine began to grow kinked to accomidate the limited space. When the guy finally got tired of doing the work needed to keep the fish alive, he dumped him off on our doorstep. We put an 8 inch fish into a 40 breeder QT tank, and he died within about a wk. Why? Because he couldn't swim, couldn't even hold himself upright without the sides of the tank to hold him up. Is that humane and the right thing to do? A fish that should have lived 20+ yrs died at the age of 3.

I understand you're upset, and like I've said, I don't enjoy having to tell people the truths behind what they have or what they were told by someone else... but someone has to do it for the sake of the animals.

When I was working at the store I used to use children for examples of keeping fish... it always works well because they are so similar. When you bring a newborn baby home from the hospital, put it into a bassinet to sleep... as that child grows you move them into a crib, and eventually a "big kids bed". Why? What would happen if you tried to keep a 2 yr old sleeping in a bassinet? Or, what would happen if you bought newborn clothing and as that child grew and got older, you kept him/her in newborn clothing?

One last comment and then I'll stop kicking a dead horse here...
Your brother is keeping freshwater fish, you are keeping saltwater fish... that also makes a huge difference. As I've already explained, the salinity of the water makes it more dense, meaning less oxygen. Marine fish have very large territories in their natural habitats... and with your foxface, you are also dealing with venom that will kill other fish. If/when that foxface gets too crowded, those dorsal spines full of venom will help him to win the territory in that tank when he begins to eliminate the other fish around him to make room for himself.

I feel bad that you've been misled by others, but unfortunately, there is more myth out there than honest and accurate information when it comes to fish keeping. The choice is still yours, but 2 grand is a lot of money to watch it die or wait until its too late to notice that it doesn't/can't work long term. I would again ask that if you're still in doubt, call some place like the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, ask them these questions.... Ask them if those fish can stay together long term in an 80 gallon tank, and then ask them why not. Go to people who know first hand for sure what happens... people who take care of them long term and have the education to go with their experience. I would have to wonder how much experience your lfs guy has long term in caring for those kinds of fish, and what his educational background is on the topic. I have been in lfs's that sell pacu to people with 55 gallon tanks and tell them they'll do great! A pacu gets about 5 ft long and about 4 ft tall... how would that possibly fit into a 55 gallon tank once it starts to grow? It can't. If you go into a lfs who stocks arrowanna... how large of a tank do they say that fish will need? How big does it get? Is it even possible? Arrowana, being a surface dweller that averages over 6 ft long full grown, and about 2 - 3 ft around... needs over 1000 gallons to survive long term... and has a life span of over 30 yrs. One of our lfs's currently has a 2.5 ft arrowana in a 175 bow front tank... is that fair to the fish? Is that a healthy environment? That fish isn't even 1/3 grown yet... where will it go when it gets to 3 ft?

Your situation is going to be no different if you don't start planning a larger tank already. Again, for those 2 fish you'll need 150 gallons or more. When I suggest a tank size for someone, I always ask what fish they want to keep first, and start them off in the proper size tank to allow that animal full growth, or at least a few yrs worth... but I always warn about what it will need in the near future. It's better for the fish to grow into the tank, and is much cheaper in the long run, too.

Proper stocking of an 80 gallon tank leaves for a lot of possibilities. To sit here and name off specific species would fill this thread beyond what anyone would want to read. The better way to do it is to tell you that 2 - 3 fish who's maximum size is 5 - 6 inches would be the limit. 3 damsels could stay long term in an 80 gallon tank. The only damsel I can think of that stays small enough to have more than that would be the blue damsel. The others average about 6 - 8 inches full grown. Why don't people see them full grown very often? Mostly because they start out in small tanks not realizing these fish will get so large, and then between water quality and space issues, the fish die before they ever see full grown. I don't want to see your fish die.
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Old 04-11-2008, 08:08 PM   #25
 
then the whole aquarium hobby is cruel with your logic. fish should be in their natural habitats with thousands of gallons of water, that is why we have aquariums, so we can view them closely, no fish is happy in an aquarium. I'm sure your oscar would much rather be in a river or lake than in a tank. I will reply back in a few months with an update on my fish
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:36 PM   #26
 
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While I do agree that these animals should be left in their natural habitats, I also understand that as wonderful as it sounds, it's not going to happen. My oscar has never known a wild habitat, he was born in an aquarium, raised in an aquarium, and I found him in a pet store at about 3 inches in length. I prefer to have a tank bred fish instead of one that was removed from its natural habitat, whenever possible.

All I was trying to point out is that there are specific needs that these animals have, and if we choose to keep them in a box of water, those needs have to be met. In a natural environment, a lot of the issues that plague aquarium fish never come into play because these animals are adapted to it, and the sizes of our oceans, lakes, and rivers is immense enough to find balance. When man tries to control something, it requires work and education to do it. It's not as simple as just drop a fish into water and watch it swim.
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Old 04-12-2008, 07:08 AM   #27
 
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I would be somewhat more liberal with fish selections for an 80 gallon aquarium. As a general rule of thumb, I would recommend 4 or 5 fish in an 80 gallon aquarium, depending on size and behavior.

There is a nice selection of fish which remain under 5 inches in length, which is about the maximum size fish you would want to consider. Most fish from the Dwarf Angel genus, Centropyge sp., would be a nice centerpiece. Many of the Clownfish, Damsels, Blennys, or Gobies would work nicely. There are species of Wrasse which stay small.

A select number of Butterflyfish stay relatively small. Your Long Nose can reach 9 inches, which is oversized. If you are serious about the challenges this family of fish presents, then consider a Teardrop Butterfly. They are relatively hardy and usually only reach 5 or 6 inches.

The Kohl Tang only reaches about 6 inches. Several Pufferfish stay small. There are even a couple of Lionfish species that stay in this size range.

You are limited, yes. You can't keep large Angelfish. You can't keep Tang s from the Zebrasoma or Acanthurus genus. Triggers, Groupers, etc will all get way to large.

Posting back in 2 months is of no use. I'm sure your fish will be fine for a couple of years. However, with some slight changes you can post back in 7 or 8 years and be very proud that your fish are still healthy.
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Old 04-12-2008, 02:42 PM   #28
 
thank you pasfur your last post was very helpful, what pufferfish stay small in specific? They would eat my cleanup crew though right? I think in a couple of years I should have the money and the time to upgrade tanks, I was freaking out because bettababy was making it sound like my fish were going to die in months, thanks guys for all your help, I know I was difficult but I do truly appreciate both of your help.
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Old 04-12-2008, 02:49 PM   #29
 
Would a christmas wrasse work in my tank? He wouldn't eat my starfish or hermit crabs would he?
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #30
 
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Although you can find Pufferfish of size that will fit in your tank, they are going to cause problems for you cleaning crew. Your crabs and starfish would be at risk. Pufferfish are only suited for fish only aquariums.

I've never kept a christmas wrasse. However, they should be provided with a layer of sand on the tank bottom because they bury themselves at night and when threatened. They have a reputation as an extremely sensitive fish. You can probably find a better selection for your tank.

I think the original topic has outplayed itself on this thread. You may want to post a new topic for additional compatibility questions.
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