What Is going On With Him?
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What Is going On With Him?

This is a discussion on What Is going On With Him? within the Saltwater Fish Diseases forums, part of the Saltwater Fish and Coral Reef Tanks category; --> A few months ago he developed a permanently open mouth and it will not close. There is nothing in his mouth that i can ...

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What Is going On With Him?
Old 10-23-2009, 04:11 PM   #1
 
What Is going On With Him?

A few months ago he developed a permanently open mouth and it will not close. There is nothing in his mouth that i can tell but he can still eat. Now that time has passed he started acting like this. Floating by the corner, looking weak. i also want to mention sometimes when he does swim out it's like his tail is heavy and he is trying to keep his head up.

YouTube - Clown Fish Sick 1
YouTube - Clown Fish Sick 2
PICT0001-1.flv video by omega59 - Photobucket

30gal tank, running 1 year
2 clown fish
1 royal dotty back
stats are fine just tested, i also did a water change.
liverock
powerheads 2
heater 76-80F 26c or so
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:05 AM   #2
 
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Looks like some sort of damage to internal organs, based on the fish behavior. With no physical symptoms, this is my best guess.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:34 AM   #3
 
how do i know for sure, and what do i do now?
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:09 PM   #4
 
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You do nothing, because you have no solid evidence to draw a conclusion. Continue to observe closely for other symptoms. Honestly, your fish will probably perish in the near future without showing any additional signs of disease. Sorry, but i've seen this situation dozens, if not hundreds of times. Trust me, it is better to not medicate than to medicate without cause.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:06 PM   #5
 
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Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
You do nothing, because you have no solid evidence to draw a conclusion. Continue to observe closely for other symptoms. Honestly, your fish will probably perish in the near future without showing any additional signs of disease. Sorry, but i've seen this situation dozens, if not hundreds of times. Trust me, it is better to not medicate than to medicate without cause.
Absolutely!
If want to try this method for what its worth, you can try keeping the fish in large, clear hang on the tank rim container(used to use Superking filter box). Make many many holes on the sides of container for good flow of water inside. Then hang this inside the tank so little isolation/penalty box w/i the same tank thus same water and same temp. Good flow is important. Use hot screwdriver tip to punch a holes, not a dirll bit which can crack hard plastic.

Dont know how long you had or when this fish arrived to lfs from long long transit unless captive bred.

Usually when fish are shipped, they are shipped in very small dime bags with tiny tiny amount of water. I've seen newly arrived fish being dumped into deep tank where fish will just swim down to bottom which can develop bladder problems/death.
I noticed the mortality rate dropped drastically when taking few factors into consideration when acclimating/transferring fish to new display tank.

I am not saying this is the cause/reason for your fish behavior but better than not trying any. At least in the box, less pressure exerted on the fish since box is hung on the rim.

Saved lots of fish using this box concept in treating/acclimating/isolating/ICU/Recovery otherwise may have just perished..

Hope things get better.

Last edited by cerianthus; 10-28-2009 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:40 PM   #6
 
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cerianthus, this is an interesting discussion. Can you elaborate further? Are you suggesting that the water pressure a fish experiences when swimming to the bottom of the aquarium could cause these mysterious bladder problems?

This is a new idea to me. I've never heard it discussed. Any thing you can share would be great.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:21 AM   #7
 
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From the sound of the original problem, it appears to be neurological damage from something or other. As Pasfur has already said, there is no medication to cure such a thing. The best you can do is to let it be or euthanize it when it is obviously too far gone to avoid suffering. There are so many things that can cause a neurological problem in a fish that it would be pointless to try guessing what caused it.

As for the water pressure question... I would also like to hear more on this theory. That one intrigues me because if that were truly the case, wouldn't the air pressure during flight time when shipped also have an adverse affect, and wouldn't it be more wide spread and not need a deep tank to trigger it? Also, what is considered deep?

The description of releasing the fish and having it go right to the bottom does not sound like swim bladder damage from pressure changes, it sounds more like extreme stress and improper acclimation procedures.

I have worked in the pet store industry for many yrs, am familiar with shipping and packing procedures. While death rates tend to be higher in marine fish than in freshwater fish, the size bags being used and pressure changes are not the issues causing it. Dirty water, lack of O2, stress, temp changes, box handling... those all play a part as to how the fish arrive. From there it is acclimation and stress, water chemistry changes, and more temp fluctuations that cause such severe stress that many fish end up sick or dead. If wholesaler is sending out expensive animals like that and the death rates are high, that wholesaler wouldn't have much if any business left. A typical saltwater order for our store consisted of about 20 boxes of animals at a time. In each box it was anywhere from 8 - 15 animals per box. The average doa rate was 2 - 3 animals, usually specialty shrimps and other known sensitive animals that had no arrival guarantee to start with. After proper acclimation procedures into proper environments/tanks, the death rate was usually nil... or very low, maybe another 2 - 3 animals during the first week, and those usually because there were issues with getting them to eat.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but that theory of pressure and swim bladder issues doesn't make much sense to me based on many yrs of experience. I look forward to hearing more.

Best of luck with the clownfish...
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:46 PM   #8
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
cerianthus, this is an interesting discussion. Can you elaborate further? Are you suggesting that the water pressure a fish experiences when swimming to the bottom of the aquarium could cause these mysterious bladder problems?

This is a new idea to me. I've never heard it discussed. Any thing you can share would be great.

Have you ever heard of decompression chamber being used for fish from deep? Certain fish are not just out of our reach because it is hard to catch but more so on the cost involved in bringing up alive.

You seemed to know lot about fish for me to think that you may have some experiences in the industry.
But have you ever unpacked fish shipped directly to you from far such as Indo-Pacific, SriLanka, or Red Sea, Brazil, etc.

There are known facts of fish anatomy, physiology, etc but I know for fact that depending how fish are handled/acclimated after long journey will dictate their survival/longevity in captivity.

Let's say for example, If I take 500 GBR from SE Asia where they have been in the tiny tiny individual dime bags with drops of water (yes, just enough to kepp them moist) and split them in two different group randomly.
With one group, I would acclimated in the table where water level will not exceed 1" high. The other group, I would let the water reached to higher (12" or more).
What I found thru over 40 yrs of playing with fish was that the Gradually Acclimated (be it depth, pH, GH, KH, temp,etc etc) Group have substantially greater survival rate and longevity than Group acclimated with abrupt/sudden changes.

Even with s/w, same results. More efforts given, higher chance of survival.

I've seen many fish die from expose to bright light when taken out of boxes or sudden massive vibrations (tap on the acclimating table/glass) thus used to do this in dark room with specific dim light bulbs (like in dark room for photography) and no one but me. No exception!!

Gradual changes is the key imo in successful fish keeping including water changes (smaller but more frequent water changes are less stressful on fish than massive pwc at once) be it f/w or s/w.

No different from us, imo. lol! Less stress, less energy wasted or should I say less burden on their bodily functions!.

Hope this helped a bit asfur. i meant Pasfur, I must have been thinking of Asfur angel from Red Sea. LOL!

Last edited by cerianthus; 10-30-2009 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:17 PM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by bettababy View Post
From the sound of the original problem, it appears to be neurological damage from something or other. As Pasfur has already said, there is no medication to cure such a thing. The best you can do is to let it be or euthanize it when it is obviously too far gone to avoid suffering. There are so many things that can cause a neurological problem in a fish that it would be pointless to try guessing what caused it.

As for the water pressure question... I would also like to hear more on this theory. That one intrigues me because if that were truly the case, wouldn't the air pressure during flight time when shipped also have an adverse affect, and wouldn't it be more wide spread and not need a deep tank to trigger it? Also, what is considered deep?

The description of releasing the fish and having it go right to the bottom does not sound like swim bladder damage from pressure changes, it sounds more like extreme stress and improper acclimation procedures.

I have worked in the pet store industry for many yrs, am familiar with shipping and packing procedures. While death rates tend to be higher in marine fish than in freshwater fish, the size bags being used and pressure changes are not the issues causing it. Dirty water, lack of O2, stress, temp changes, box handling... those all play a part as to how the fish arrive. From there it is acclimation and stress, water chemistry changes, and more temp fluctuations that cause such severe stress that many fish end up sick or dead. If wholesaler is sending out expensive animals like that and the death rates are high, that wholesaler wouldn't have much if any business left. A typical saltwater order for our store consisted of about 20 boxes of animals at a time. In each box it was anywhere from 8 - 15 animals per box. The average doa rate was 2 - 3 animals, usually specialty shrimps and other known sensitive animals that had no arrival guarantee to start with. After proper acclimation procedures into proper environments/tanks, the death rate was usually nil... or very low, maybe another 2 - 3 animals during the first week, and those usually because there were issues with getting them to eat.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but that theory of pressure and swim bladder issues doesn't make much sense to me based on many yrs of experience. I look forward to hearing more.

Best of luck with the clownfish...
I always have learn more by keeping my ears, eyes and nose but most importantly my mind opened.
Thus i honestly welcome more opinions/ideas where I will learn something new AND I HAVE.

Fish being shipped from local wholesaler is one thing but when 60 purple tangs are bagged individually and shipped from Red Sea /same amt of yellow tangs from Hawaii directly to you (p/u at Airport thru Custom, Wildlife), it is different ball game all together.
Even in f/w where fish are shipped in one large bag/box, how one acclimate them will determine the outcome at wholesale/retail and even in you tank, imo.

Dirty water, O2 content, temp of water in the bag are my least concern. If fish are alive in the bag, i am more concerned with how I would act (prepare new water, pH, temp, prepare acclimating tables, depth, etc) with given situations (the quality, temp of water in the bag, etc) which will have more direct influences on their survival rate.

I have seen enough fish crushed to death or suffer greatly due to not taking the depth into consideration when unpacked/acclimated by someone who first opend transhipped fish. Same types of fish from same shipper across the ocean but great difference in results or should I say more stable and hgher survival rates.

Again this is from my experiences and also knowledge obtained from science background.

Hope someone can benefit from my trial and error.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:34 PM   #10
 
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Cer...

I'm still not on board with this. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not there either. Most LFS aren't even using aquariums, just holding tank which are less than 12'' deep. What sort of systems were you all running? What other factors were involved?
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