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Diagnosis needed - Dawn??

This is a discussion on Diagnosis needed - Dawn?? within the Saltwater Fish Diseases forums, part of the Saltwater Fish and Coral Reef Tanks category; --> I will say this, one thing to keep in mind is that this is my fish. Knowing this is my fish allows us to ...

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Diagnosis needed - Dawn??
Old 01-03-2010, 09:17 PM   #11
 
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I will say this, one thing to keep in mind is that this is my fish. Knowing this is my fish allows us to skip a few pages of questions and answers. These skipped Q&A could cause some people to jump to conclusions when faced with a similar (but different) situation in the future. So I do think it is appropriate to go offline with this discussion.

I think both of you present possible causes and diagnosis. I considered several possibilities, including a skin abrasion from a scrape on a rock, a bite from the Hogfish, a slash from a Surgeonfish, a bacterial infection from high DOC's, and fin damage cause by a net in the shipping process. I was able to rule all of these situations out to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, it almost has to be one of these things, so it is most likely a result of aggression from other fish, despite my not observing such behavior.

Regardless of how it occurred, it does appear to be fungal. However, I never saw signs of a bacterial infection, so I am still sitting tight before I treat. Today the infection appeared to be slightly reduced, so I am patiently considering options.

This is why internet diagnosis is so difficult, we simply do not have lab equipment at our disposal.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:32 PM   #12
 
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You make a wonderful point with internet making diagnosis difficult. I have the lab equipment, just not access to the animals to take the scrapings and biopsies that would lend full accurate answers without question.

One note about the bacterial possibilities... more often than not fungal infections are accompanied by underlying bacterial infections, it just is not as easily seen by the naked eye. Fungus tends to feed on dead skin tissue, and this applies to a wide range in species of fungus that are common in the fish world. It is often than the bacteria does the primary damage and the fungus then feeds on the damaged/dead tissue. Unfortunately, the only way to know positively if the bacteria is indeed present is to get a scraping under the scope. In situations like this all we can do is weigh the symptoms, examine what photos are available, and make the best educated guess we can, and try to safely treat for those things that may be there if we have good reason to believe they are. In this case, the symptoms for both bacterial and fungal infections appear to be present.

I also want to note, I did not make this diagnosis alone. I called my husband in to consult because marine fish disease and illness is his specialty. The photos were not perfectly clear, but they were clear enough for us to both recognize specific signs of both bacterial and fungal infections at work. My diagnosis and treatment suggestions were based on that consult and the lengthy discussion we shared about what we both saw.

My only goal is to help see this fish recover as quickly and easily as possible. Please keep me posted and let me know if there are any changes, I plan to follow this case closely.

Best of luck to you and your fish.
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Old 01-05-2010, 04:42 PM   #13
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
I will say this, one thing to keep in mind is that this is my fish. Knowing this is my fish allows us to skip a few pages of questions and answers. These skipped Q&A could cause some people to jump to conclusions when faced with a similar (but different) situation in the future. So I do think it is appropriate to go offline with this discussion.

I think both of you present possible causes and diagnosis. I considered several possibilities, including a skin abrasion from a scrape on a rock, a bite from the Hogfish, a slash from a Surgeonfish, a bacterial infection from high DOC's, and fin damage cause by a net in the shipping process. I was able to rule all of these situations out to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, it almost has to be one of these things, so it is most likely a result of aggression from other fish, despite my not observing such behavior.

Regardless of how it occurred, it does appear to be fungal. However, I never saw signs of a bacterial infection, so I am still sitting tight before I treat. Today the infection appeared to be slightly reduced, so I am patiently considering options.

This is why internet diagnosis is so difficult, we simply do not have lab equipment at our disposal.

No one, including myself has to share something which took many years of schooling/very determined efforts but again I am only trying to assist to see your fish make a full recovery.
Another reason why I joined fish forum is to learn new persppectives in fish keeping by reading/listening to others' experiences. No one know all, even if I one is a Fish Pathologist/Marine Biologist.

Like you said it is your fish and your decision. No argument there.
My intentions are to assist not create confusion. I am sure everyone wants to see your fish make a full recovery.

Although pics are very blur, first thing that popped in my head was early stages (no lesions yet?) of Mycobacterium Sp (Fish TB) and Nocardia Sp. infections which I have seen from my experiences. I'm tilting more toward former.
Google for info/images and also research data & Fish Pathology Books for comparison. You could also contact or e-mail clear pics to few Fish Phrmaceutical Co for advices. Fish TB is not that uncommon in captivity and as similar symptom(s) can mislead first timers towards fungal infection, one tends to overlook what could be simpler diagnosis.
By all means, I am not syaing it is or it is not, even with clear pics.
All I am trying to do is to open bigger horizon for most hobbyist for better and more accurate diagnosis.


Hope it is lot simpler than I am thinking.


Hope all goes well!

Last edited by cerianthus; 01-05-2010 at 05:01 PM..
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:41 PM   #14
 
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Thanks for the input. Sincerely.

Today the white patch is gone. (no treatment yet) What remains is redness, with no texture or thickness. I am still sitting tight. I plan to begin treatment for a bacterial infection in the near future if no further improvement is seen. I still hold hope that the fish recovers on its own, which often occurs when I show extreme patience.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:05 PM   #15
 
Just redness? No lesion yet? What kind of antibiotics do you have now or what was recommended by BB?

Hope this can be reveresed/healed with improvement on water conditions. Small but frequent water changes.
Never massive one in one shot. Even when ajusting pH or calc, mag, etc, etc, should be done gradually, letting fish adjust to gradually changing environment.
Are you certain of no pH fluctuations and/or prolonged lower than usual pH exposure recently?

How is Butterfly? Is it eating well? How about majestic's eating habit?

I dont know if you know what Supreme Superking Filter looks like? I found that the Filter Box had numerous use in catching/dipping/isolating/even injection/minor surgery(?)/Photo taking/ HOB refugium to grow mangroves or macro, etc etc.
If you can get your hands on few of these, they may serve important tasks in fish keeping. So does Large plastic carbon Jar with few modifications. Well, IMO.

I even used clear plasic jars with mod as Fish trap when catching s/w, f/w fish. I will share that some other time. Ever since reading about Lionfish in LI Sound, I'm dying to catch one although such news does prove global warming, at leat to some degree. Caught enough buterflies, Big eye, file, Web Burr, etc, etc during HOT HOtT Summer months.

Anyway, keep us posted.

Last edited by cerianthus; 01-05-2010 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:12 PM   #16
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerianthus View Post
Just redness? No lesion yet?
Not yet. And the skin appears to be closing over the wound. In other words, the size of the circle is smaller.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:33 PM   #17
 
bit concerned with rednes you mentioned which CAN lead to lesion.

Hope my assumptions are wrong .

Good Luck!
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:15 PM   #18
 
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One day later and still looking better. No white stuff and the skin is healing.
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Old 01-08-2010, 06:47 PM   #19
 
Any treatment given yet or actions taken to assist with healing?
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Old 01-08-2010, 06:55 PM   #20
 
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No action yet. I stepped up the garlic feedings to reduce the risk of an ich infection. If you've followed my threads on ich you know how much I believe in garlic.

Other than that, i've just sat back and allowed the fish a chance to heal. It is so much better today than it was a few days ago that I am not going to add any meds if not necessary. I am ridiculously patient when it comes to disease. I just hate adding any meds to a tank.
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