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Building a Sump

10K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  Kellsindell 
#1 ·
What would be the first step to building a sump? I know nothing about building one or plumbing one. We are actually going out today to find a stand for the tank today. (it has been sitting on the floor for now) Now I want to put it up on a stand and add a sump for extra filtration.

The sump will be a 10g since I already have one sitting around the house. What kind of piping will I need and what needs to be done with the main tank? Will I need a skimmer? Powerheads? Additional filters? Other materials?
 
#2 ·
First and foremost, a 10 gallon sump is not going to work. I don't even know the size of your display tank, but it does not matter. A 10 gallon sump is not big enough to hold the desired equipment. Also, keep in mind, a sump has to be big enough to hold the back flow of water from your display tank if the power goes out.

I suggest using a plastic storage tote as your sump. Use the biggest size that can fit in the space you have available. The basic of the sump is to have a place to house your activated carbon, particulate filters, protein skimmer, dosage systems, calcium reactor, UV sterilizer, heaters, etc. And possibly extra live rock if you so desire.

You will have an overflow from your aquarium, skimming organics from the water surface. The water should first flow thru a particle filter to remove large water born particulates. Many hobbyists place a bag of activated carbon next in the sump. From this point all water should be forced into the protein skimmer before entering the return pump of your aquarium. (If your system does not contain live rock, then your water will exit the skimmer and then enter the biological filter.)

It is of extreme importance that all water first goes into the skimmer before entering any biological filter source, such as bioballs. It is also important that you do not use biological filtration of any type in an aquarium with live rock. Do not make the mistake of throwing bioballs into the sump "because you have room."

You may also want to incorporate an automatic evaporation replacement system by using a float valve to trigger the prepared replacement water container to release water into the sump. This is a very nice feature that i highly recommend to anyone with space.
 
#3 ·
Pasfur, I have seen a lot of tanks with 10G sumps, whether it be a 2.5 G display, 5G display, 10G display, or even 20G display, that are running great. I, personally dont see why it wouldn't work. Everything else you mentioned is gold though (good job!).

And, I belive Twitch's Tank is 20G. Wouldn't a 10G be able to hold that? I will try to find some links for the 10G sumps to explain better.
 
#4 ·
You can make a sump out of ANY size vessel that can hold water. The only factor involved is whether it's scaled correctly to the display tank (e.g. a 10g would not efficiently process water for a 120g), and whether it can house the equipment you want to employ. A 10g should be more than enough room for a nano skimmer, a heater, any other filtration etc... Remember, as strictly a water processing tank, these don't need to be aesthetically placed around the tank, they can be fit side by side if need be, as long as they are doing their job.

If his tank is 20g, and his sump is 10g, then that's effectively a 30g system, with 10g of that being dedicated strictly to water processing/cleansing. I'd say that it will be a pretty healthy system if it's set up properly.

I think you should begin designing an automatic top-off unit if you haven't already. Don't go out and purchase the expensive units, you can really create your own using nothing but some containers, airline tubing and gravity. The only thing you need to figure out is the drip rate.

Good luck, post pics when you can (I know you can, you did in your other thread ;) )
 
#5 ·
I know nothing about plumbing any of this. Are there any step by step threads on this at all? I'll look into skimmers and the other equipment. So the water goes into the sump, goes through a particle filter and then through activated carbon. I'm guessing this is in the first chamber. Can the particle filter and activated carbon be a filter bag from a regular filter like I have? Then from what I've seen from pictures of sumps, it then goes into the refugium which can have a deep sand bed and LR rubble, correct? I've also heard this can be a place to add some clean up crew if desired. After that second chamber, it goes through the protein skimmer and then back into the tank, correct? Am I getting this right?

So how do you get the water to go down into the sump? Gravity? Pump?
 
#6 ·
You dont want to drill this (obviously) since you have it running.

You will want an overflow box, with PVC tubing plumbing down into your first chamber. Coming back up, I would use PVC as well, but eventually split it into two return sections. Get two 90 degree elbows for the top that go over the rim of the tank into the tank. It actually isnt as complicated as it seems, but most people have very complicated designs that confuse people (I used to know nothing about this).

I will try to have a picture up tommorow for you if you would like.
 
#7 ·
Pictures would be great. I'm a visual learner. I have a hard time learning anything by just talking about it. So the 90 degree elbows would sit on the rim of the tank. How does the water go up into them? And the 90 degree elbows would put water into the overflow? And then from the overflow, they go down into the sump? So how does the water return without gravity?
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the picture. It kind of makes sense. I just don't understand how the water flows to the sump? How does it get into the overflow by way of 90 degree pvc pipe? does it sit down in the tank with the end facing forward or down?

So the water flows up into the pvc pipe, into the overflow. Then does the overflow box have a pipe going straight down into the sump? As I understand the diagram, the water exits the overflow box and down into the first chamber where it passes through some particle filters and activated carbon. Can this be filter bags like from a regular filter? I know that my filter bags have activated carbon in them. Then they go down past that first wall, under the second and over the third. I'm guessing gravity pushes the water through these? And then it enters the refugium that has deep live sand and live rock rubble. This serves as a biological filter, correct? then it passes through a protein skimmer which I guess pumps the water back up into the tank.

Sorry that I keep asking so many questions. I just don't want to mess this up. I want to know everything I can before building this thing. I guess the one concept I don't understand is how the water flows through all these without the aid of a water pump. I guess gravity does it?
 
#10 ·
The water flows by itself through the sump. The baffles (glass walls in tank) are where the water will fall over it into the next section, which basically creates its own current. As long as the water flows over, you are good. An overflow is basically an area for water to flow down to a sump.

The overflow just goes down. The PVC is for going back up. I am just suggesting the elbows because you cant drill it. Look at this tank: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154378&hl=five+gallon+bowfront . Go through the pictures. See how the PVC elbows go over the rim of the tank? That is from the return pump. They dont have an overflow though. That is a good thread to look at.

To answer you question; yes, gravity does have a big role here. The water level will be different in every section because of the baffles. The tube/pvc from the overflow will power a good enoigh flow.

The first section is for the tubing from the tank.
The second section is a refugium, where you will have your heater, live rock, live sand, macro algea, etc.
The third chamber is for the return pump, and a possible protein skimmer.
You can put floss in between the last set of baffles, and carbon in the first section if you want. That is not needed, however. It is also wise to place eggcrate above the baffles to contain contents in the fuge.
 
#12 ·
Twitch said:
ok, I think I understand the majority of how to set up a sump. One more question remaining for now.

How do you get the flow going? Is it kind of like a siphon?
For the overflow? Yes, you would have a continuous siphon. That would make everything in the sump "go" too.

That made me remember something; check valves. You will need one going down, and one going up to prevent accidently siphoing the tank. They are just little valves you can probably find when you start plumbing. Here is one: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10090+4087&pcatid=4087
 
#13 ·
A couple of points to make here.

(1) The tank will not siphon out via the overflow box should the pump fail. Water flow will stop from the sump, as in the case of pump failure, and water will not flow into the overflow. It's physically impossible.

(2) Utilizing a spray bar instead of a directional return also will prevent the tank from siphoning. The spray bar is located above water an has no means with which to create a siphon. The utilization of spray bars will also increase oxygenation by breaking the surface tension of the water.

(3) Two key elements in building a sump are the sump size and pump size. The sump should be large enough to hold any water siphoned accidentally from the main tank. Pump size determines all pipe sizing, water flow rate, and overflow box size.
 
#14 ·
OK, Now it's my turn

A. A sump can be made from any "FOOD SAFE" tank or tub. If you're using a water trough, be sure it has not been treated with an algicide.

B. The sump can be any size so long as the following necessary requirements are met. (1)the inlet section need be large enough to house the skimmer, its pump if intternal, and any inlet piping. (2) the refugium, if incorporated, need be 10% of the total volume of the display. (3) the return section need be large enough to incorporate the pump, the water necessary to cover the pump completely, and enough water to compensate for maximum evaporation for a 24 hour period. If it takes 1 gallon to cover your pump, and your evaporation rate in the winter with forced air heat is 3 gallons per day, the return section need house 4 gallons of water minimum. (4) there should be ample room to house any additional equipment you need. i.e. Heaters. and (5) there must be enough room left over, beyond the normal operating capacity, to house any water drained from the display (and the skimmer) in the event of a power outage.

The tank will not drain from the overflow below the height of the lowest slot in the inlet section of the overflow box

The display will however drain from any inlet pipes that do not have a syphon break

you do not need a check valve to prevent excess drainage from the display in the event of a power outage. You need a syphon break. A syphon break is simply a hole drilled in the return pipes, where they enter the display, just below the surface of the water.

A spray bar should not be above the surface of the water. This will cause micro-bubbles. Micro - bubbles are not good for your corals. Increasing the surface area of your display will improve gas exchange. You increase the surface area of your display by increasing the disturbance of the surface water with flow from inlets and powerheads. Meaning the surface of your display should have lots of waves and ripples.

and to start a syphon in a u-tube for an external overflow, you place the end of a long section of air-line tube into the u-tube, place the u-tube in the filled overflow (both sides must be filled) and then suck the air out of the u-tube. The end of the airline tube should be in the highest point of the u-tube when you perform this, and you must do it fairly quickly once the u-tube is full of water, the flow will have started. remove the airline tube (without letting air back into the tube.). Small air bubbles in the u-tube should eventually be swept away with the current. Larger bubbled can often be removed by vigorously (but carefully) shaking the u-tube to chop the bubbles up a bit.

hope that helped.
 
#15 ·
I had the man that owns the LFS to show me examples of his sumps and how they are put together and how they work. Basically I'll need a skimmer and he recommended some bioballs. He recommended I get a 29g tank and use a 20g as my sump. Not sure if I'm going to do this or not, but we shall see.

He is willing to order in any tanks I need and he will drill the correct holes I need and put the acrylic "walls" that seperate the sections of the sump into the tank for me. He only recommends a larger size so that I can put a skimmer into it. A good skimmer, not a small crappy one. But I dunno. I can't seem to find a good stand for my tank that will be able to hold a 29 on top and a 20g on the bottom. We checked PetClub but they didn't have any like that. (No, I don't have my tank on a stand yet)
 
#16 ·
Twitch said:
I had the man that owns the LFS to show me examples of his sumps and how they are put together and how they work. Basically I'll need a skimmer and he recommended some bioballs. He recommended I get a 29g tank and use a 20g as my sump. Not sure if I'm going to do this or not, but we shall see.

He is willing to order in any tanks I need and he will drill the correct holes I need and put the acrylic "walls" that seperate the sections of the sump into the tank for me. He only recommends a larger size so that I can put a skimmer into it. A good skimmer, not a small crappy one. But I dunno. I can't seem to find a good stand for my tank that will be able to hold a 29 on top and a 20g on the bottom. We checked PetClub but they didn't have any like that. (No, I don't have my tank on a stand yet)
He sounds like a smart man.

However, Bioballs will raise your nitrates. A better suggestion is Live Rock rubble, but I'm sure there is something better. Rubble will most likely be your best option here.

Hmm, the stand can be a problem as you said. Both tanks are 30" long, so that can be difficult. I've seen tanks with like a 10G display w/ a 10G sump, but I am pretty sure the stands are custom built. It also may be best to build a stand, or have someone build one for you.
 
#17 ·
Building one is near impossible. We can't build anything well enough for use. I might stick with my original plan of using the 10g as the sump as that will fit under a lot of the stands we saw. He was actually unsure of the use of rubble as he uses bioballs pretty much exclusively in his sumps.

I will talk to him tomorrow about possibly just using the 10g and see what he thinks is best. If I use the 10g I won't be able to drill since the glass is tempered so I will use the overflow box method.
 
#18 ·
Twitch...


Do not use bioballs. They are inferior to live rock and will quickly compromise the water quality.

Some people claim Live Rock 'rubble' become nitrate factories as well - this is true only when the pieces are reminiscent of 'rubble' (being very small shards, for example), allowing the buildup of a considerable amount of waste material.

Use large pieces of porous live rock, similar to what you would have in your display tank, and I assure you, filtration will not be an issue given the right amount of time.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I don't know much about sumps but, couldn't you use live plants (Java Moss?) instead of bioballs or live rocks? or would there not be enough waste for plants to grow?

(Java moss requires little light and should grow like crazy in a sump. also remove nitrates, etc etc from the water)

article about Java Moss
http://www.bettatalk.com/http://www.bettatalk.com/java_moss.htm
 
#24 ·
Thought so. The macroalgae posted would do the same trick and we don't use it in the main display unless you have something that'll eat it, otherise it may get out of hand and could very well strangle corals especially calurpa.
 
#25 ·
Wasn't this found to be high risk due to the potential for nutrients to be released back into the water?

Kells... Do you have personal experience? I'd be interested in hearing details.
 
#26 ·
Yeah, i've thankfully have not had this occur when the macro bleaches, but it does and it'll turn the whole tank green and the macro with turn clear, then disolve altogether.

With calurpa, as it's most prone to doing this, you need to have light on it 24/7 to keep it from bleaching, yes you can go a long time without this occuring, but eventually it does and will.
 
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