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My tank is a disaster

5K views 34 replies 7 participants last post by  n2fish 
#1 ·
I thought my tank was coming along just fine, doing water tests, changes etc., everybody looked happy.

Late last week my ammonia started to rise so I was doing more frequent water changes and then the Ich set in. I'm treating for the Ich but I can't do water changes while doing it.

I'm loosing 1 fish per day to God knows what. The dead fish have been Cardinal Tetras so I'm guessing it's not the Ich ( because that dosen't "look" real bad) but rather I'm thinking it's just poor water conditions.

Can you accurately test water while treating with medications, specifically ADP Ich meds?

I don't know what should take priority.

I'm down to 4-6 Cardinals and one Black Veil Angel in a 36 bow.

Suggestions??
 
#2 ·
if you have ammonia, water changes are more important and will do more good than the meds. same for nitrites. ammonia and nitrites are far more deadly to the fish than ich. i wouldn't bother with meds at this point. ich is stress related and is probably because of your ammonia right now. get your levels under control and see if it doesn't clear up on it's own.
 
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#3 ·
You aren't clear, but it sounds like this is a new (tank) setup and you are seeing a typical ammonia spike?
Are you sure the problem is ick? I ask because often adverse water conditions, especially in newer tanks are actually a fungus that merely looks like ick. When I was first establishing my 60g, my Mollies came down with what at first looked like ick, but I later decided was a fungus (other fish 'seemed' okay). I moved them to a hospital tank and treated with tank buddies fungus med. Cleared up right away and after a suitable period, I moved them back to the main tank. Within days, the white spots were back and they looked aweful. In the meantime, other fish were stressed (clamped fins, hunkering on the bottom) - a significant water change bounced them back!

Make a long story short or a short story long, the mollies seemed to be ultra sensitive to the water conditions and it wasn't until the tank had fully cycled that they could live there - I'm sorry to say that the two females did not survive the overall ordeal (couple with a male that would never let them rest). I still have the male, but from time to time he appears sickly, even though the Platy's and Tetras are very healthy.

If your ammonia is high, I suggest a 50% water change with aggressive gravel siphoning. Stop treating for ick unless you're 100% positive it is ick. It's likely the highly toxic ammonia will kill your fish faster than ick.
Can you setup a small hospital tank to treat fish outside your main tank?
 
#4 ·
Yea, it's a new tank. I also have ammonia in my tap water so that doesn't help. It (the ammonia in tap water) seems to dissipate when I treat with Prime and let set for a couple days.

My tapwater PH is off the charts high using the APD liquid test for High PH (I used the Low PH test first and it was off the charts high). That also seems to come down quite a bit with Prime and setting for a couple days. I have even taken to using an eye dropper and putting a drop or two of PH Down per gallon of the tap water while it sits.

The Ich - pretty sure it's Ich, the fish look like they have been sprinkled with salt crystals.

I work with a guy that says Ich is in every tank but dosen't manifest itself unless the fish are stressed, which poor water conditions would do of course.

OK, big water change tonight when I get home and prepare for more changes over the weekend I guess.

Thank you ;-)
 
#5 ·
Treating tap water with something like Prime, what do you guys feel is the minimum you let tap water "breathe"? I always figured on a minimum of 24hrs.

I need to do these water changes but I'm not set up with enough gallon jugs to do 50% Currently I have 8-9 gallons always on standby and I just used those up doing a change in the last hour. (approx a 20% change).


I'll fix that tomorrow and go to Wally World and get some more of those 2-1/2 gallon jugs of drinking water.
 
#6 ·
Treating tap water with something like Prime, what do you guys feel is the minimum you let tap water "breathe"? I always figured on a minimum of 24hrs.

I need to do these water changes but I'm not set up with enough gallon jugs to do 50% Currently I have 8-9 gallons always on standby and I just used those up doing a change in the last hour. (approx a 20% change).


I'll fix that tomorrow and go to Wally World and get some more of those 2-1/2 gallon jugs of drinking water.

I am sorry to hear about your fish. I agree that water changes is the most important thing at this point. I would add prime at every water change. What I do is fill with a hose (python) right from the tap and add the Prime as I am doing that. I still believe that clean, fresh water is the secret to a healthy tank. Do you have live plants to help use up some of that Ammonia? That would also be a good option, over and above the water changes.
 
#8 ·
Prime works almost instantly - there are folks here that add Prime at the same time they add chlorinated water directly to the tank!
 
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#10 ·
Hi n2fish. Just a few basics, and I'm not an expert... you need Byron to chime in here! Let's hope he adds his input.
Prime is THE best. You do not need to let any water rest or sit. He hooks up his Python and literally squirts the Prime into the tank and it works INSTANTLY to neutralize the chlorine. I believe it is still there but neutralized. So don't bother with the extra jugs. If and when you can, invest in a direct hose hook up like a Python, they are fabulous and I will never haul a bucket of water again. There are several brands out there, approx $25 - $50. You need to know the distance from the closest tap to your tank.
As for PH, mine is very high also at 8.2-8.4 and my water also has ammonia of .20 right out of the tap.
Recheck that tap water reading, it seems high. maybe your city water people just did a chlorine dump into the system, they do that from time to time without warning.
Are you using the Liquid API test kit? That is important as the little stick ones' are unreliable as they absorb humidity and can read incorrectly and give inaccurate readings. Please get one of these too as soon as you can. I'm sorry I don't know people's budgets and hate asking people to spend more money but it is a must. lol. sorry
How long has this tank been up and running?
Your plants should be absorbing a lot of the ammonia too.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for the reply!

OK, I just did another 20% water change, second one in about 16 hours. I got cuious so after I let the tank set for a few minutes to "mix everything up", I retested, no apparent change in the ammonia.

Being even more curious I retested my tap water and indeed it was reading 1.0 - ish kinda hard to tell really between the colors on the card but definately higer than the 0.5ppm on the card and lower than the 2.0ppm. So it seems like I'm getting "crud" out of my gravel bed and water colum but I'm putting the same amount of ammonia right back in.

Is there a product to add to the tap water to neutralize the ammonia I'm seeing?

I do use the liquid API Freshwater Master Test Kit

I can afford a Python, I was worried about the water not setting for 24 hrs so I never really gave it much consideration but sounds like you more experianced guys aren't worried about it as long as you treat while adding the new water.

PS: I replaced the filter cartridge I had cut open and poured out the carbon (because I was treating for Ich) with a new one WITH carbon early this morning.
 
#12 · (Edited)
From this morning:

36 gallon tank - (started exactly 4 weeks ago)
Temp 80
pH 7.0
Ammonia 1.0-1.5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate - didn't test

Lots of live plants

current residents:
4 Cardinal Tetras
1 Black Veal Angel (small)
1 Zebra Danio

I "had" 12 Cardinal's but been loosing one per day

No more fish until I get this ironed out
 
#13 ·
PRIME, PRIME, PRIME. Instant water conditioner! Slightly more expensive, but use small quantities, but all you need. THE BEST. I vaguely remember Byron saying you cannot overdose if you have to use extra. I think I saw somewhere that you can use up to 5 x the amount in an emergency.
But Prime neutralizes the chlorine and chloramine which is also in tap water and so do your plants!! Not all other brands remove the Chloramine. Instantly. I just mix the dose into one jug and pour it into the tank and start my Python.
(Oh and yes it does smell bad and that is normal.)
Ammonia test.... are you waiting the 5 minutes, inverting the bottles to drip upside down? Can you post a pic of the tube next to the chart? I know colour is all subject to lighting...
Next bit of advise.... Relax. You are doing lots right! Trust the product, it has a reputation and has been used I know by Byron for 15 years, I've just started using it on his advice and reading his posts.
Search his name, and read everything he writes!!!! lol (he's almost at 13,000 posts! I consider that a super-duper expert!) :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
 
#22 · (Edited)
Ammonia test.... are you waiting the 5 minutes, inverting the bottles to drip upside down? Can you post a pic of the tube next to the chart? I know colour is all subject to lighting...
OK - let me give this a try. This is the fourth ammonia test from my tap, spread out over a week. The photos are from this morning about 20 minutes ago.

My testing proceedure:

Let the tap water run for a few minutes, wrinse test tube with water to be tested with cap on shaking the tube dumping it out, lather, rinse, repeat for a total of three times.

8 drops ammonia test liquid #1, replace cap on test tube, quick rock back and forth to make sure it's mixed with the test water

8 drops ammonia test liquid #2, replace cap, shake back and forth for 5 seconds, set kitchen timer for 5 minutes and wait.

Here is what I get out of my tap, kinda hard to see the color accurately but you'll get an idea. I'm saying it's 1.0 - 1.5 What do you all think? I treat with Prime before putting in tank.
 

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#14 ·
Test your NitrAtes... you may have some but the Ammonia readings are there because it's high in your new water, and it never really goes away, and you might also be reading Chloramine... it reads the same.
you are looking for about 10-20 to know when you are thru the cycle... but you also have live plants....
Did you ever see a rinse and fall in the NitrItes?
 
#15 ·
Thanks Jakie - yea, I switched to Prime about two weeks ago reading Byrons posts.

Never saw a rise in the Nitrites...

I think I jumped the gun a bit with the fish.

I figured I had lots of plants and hadn't seen any ammonia after having 6 Zebra Danios in the tank for two weeks so I got the LFS to adopt the Danios (all the ones I could catch) and got the Cardinals, then a week later bought the 2 black Veils.

Now the ammonia rears it's ugly head lol. I think it's more a matter of me not being patient enought to let the biological thing run it's course.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Couldn't find a Python so I bought a Boa :mrgreen:, a <cough> "PROFESSIONAL" water changing system made by Deep Blue. They had a couple by Aquaeon but I read the reviews on those before I left the condo...mixed positives and negatives. The biggest complaint was that you should buy a brass piece for inbetween the house faucet and the plastic "manifold" for lack of a better term. This one from Deep Blue had brass bits with it.

Only had a 50ft but that's OK because I would have been pushing it with a 25 footer. So, I cut the hose way back. If anybody needs 15 or so feet of hose, I'll give it to them for the cost of shipping.

Not a lot of suction to this thing even with my water faucet on full blast. So anyway, I had filled up the 8 gallons of jugs after this mornings change and treated with Prime and PH Down so I did a small change using the Boa for the vacuum portion of the change and used up the 8 gallons.

So that's (2) 20% ish changes in the last 4 hours, along with the other 20% I did yesterday evening. I'll do a 50% tomorrow after I do some calcs on how much prime and PH Down I want to have ready to dump as I'm refilling from my tap.

I'll retest water here in an hour or so after things settle down.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I've read through this thread, and will respond by backing up a bit. It is dangerous to jump in with too many "cures" at once. So this will go from step one, no offense to anyone.

Ich: Raise the temp to 85F, or even higher if fish can tolerate it. Angels and cardinals can, so close to 90F for at least a week [the Danio would not manage however]. No medications are needed if you get it to 90F. I have fish that can't handle this, so I go to 85F and use Coppersafe (made by Mardel). One treatment. Do a good water change (50%) first, add the CS and raise the temp by adjusting the heater so it will be gradual [you can warm it by 4-5 F degrees with the water change first]. Discontinue plant ferts if any are normally used. Leave it for a full week. Turn the heat down to normal after 7 days and let the tank temp naturally lower. Do a partial water change 3-4 days after that. End of ich. If you need to do water changes during this period, it will dilute the CS. Adding half the amount only for replacement water works. I have some very sensitive wild-caught fish, and this treatment has never harmed them.

Ammonia: Remember that using Prime will detoxify the ammonia by changing it to ammonium which is harmless, but tests will still show ammonium as "ammonia." Prime is effective for 36 hours, maybe 48 max. Normally, if ammonia is in the tap water, using Prime (or another conditioner that detoxifies ammonia) with a water change will deal with the initial influx of ammonia, and by the end of its effectiveness the live plants and/or bacteria will catch up. This is the only safe way to deal with ammonia in the source water.

Cardinal Tetra: This is a highly sensitive species; the Coppersafe is the only medication I have ever used and not lost cardinals. Also, they are not a fish for "new" tanks. Whenever I have added cardinals to a tank that is less than 5-6 weeks established [and I don't mean cycled, I mean fully cycled and then established which with sufficient live plants will be in 5-6 weeks] I have either lost them outright or they came down with ich.

This also makes them highly sensitive to pH and chemicals. Cardinals occur in water so soft the hardness is practically unmeasurable, and the pH is less than 5, often around 4. Hard water causes severe stress, and calcium blockage of the kidneys among other things. In post 1 it was mentioned that pH is very high, with no number, but as you get it down to 7 with chemicals I will assume it is maybe 8 or more? This will kill cardinals within months, maybe a year or two at best. And the pH adjusting stuff will add stress and weaken them. Very probably a major contributor to the ich.

pH in general: Adjusting pH should never be attempted until you know the hardness and deal with that. Rather than repeat, I'll refer you to my article that covers this relationship and mentions how to lower hardness/pH safely if that is needed:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/

Byron.
 
#19 ·
In post 1 it was mentioned that pH is very high, with no number, but as you get it down to 7 with chemicals I will assume it is maybe 8 or more?

Byron.
The pH in my tank I try to keep between 6.8 - 7.0 but I have to treat often with PH Down to get it and keep it there.

The water coming out of my tap is over 8.8 using the High PH test in the liquid test kit. The color chart dosen't go any higer so I'm not sure how high it really is.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Little bit of an update, just got back from my LFS, one of the better ones so I'm told. I don't have a lot of experiance with any of them yet but many people seem to think this is the "go to" store so....

It's not Ammonia comming out of my tap but rather Chloramine, which we know looks like ammonia when the water is tested..ok, makes sense. Also about the water hardness, they didn't have an exact number to give me but said everybody in South Florida has to deal with very hard water due to the composite of our aquafir. Their suggestion is to use a product by Seachem called Neural Regulator which not only removes Chorine, Chloramine and Ammonia but also adjusts High or Low pH to 7.0

They agreed, because of my water conditions, Cardinal Tetras were not the best choice to put in my tank.
 
#26 ·
If the ammonia is chloramine, then a good water conditioner that detoxifies chlorine and chloramine will handle that. I don't have chloramine in my tap water, so I have no experience with ammonia tests reading it after a water change; they may well do this. That deals with the ammonia issue.

To the softer water. I would prefer diluting the hard water with pure water to get it permanently soft, as Gwen does, rather than using expensive (long-term) chemicals. I've not used the Seachem product mentioned, but if the water KH (bicarbonates, Alkalinity) is high, it might take a lot of the product to keep it stable.

If you read my article on hardness, you will know that diluting hard water with pure water is easy and safe. Using half pure to half tap dilutes the water hardness by half. You can use bottled water [make sure it contains no "salts" as some do], distilled water, RO water, rainwater--or simply boil the water. The boiling removes the GH hardness, but not the KH.
 
#27 · (Edited)
If you read my article on hardness, you will know that diluting hard water with pure water is easy and safe. Using half pure to half tap dilutes the water hardness by half. You can use bottled water [make sure it contains no "salts" as some do], distilled water, RO water, rainwater--or simply boil the water. The boiling removes the GH hardness, but not the KH.
Hi Byron - yes, I read it (three or four times actually) and trying to figure out a good inexpensive source for the R.O. or distilled water. If we're talking 50% water changes (18 gallons total) and diluting it buy half I would need 9-10 gallons per week. I'm not relishing the thought of adding that expense nor haulling that up two flights of stairs every weekend.
 
#28 ·
for bottled water, check if any of your grocery stores have refill drinking water. that is what i use and it is only 29 cents a gallon. you can buy 5 gal water jugs and refill them. it ends up being pretty cheap.
 
#29 · (Edited)
for bottled water, check if any of your grocery stores have refill drinking water. that is what i use and it is only 29 cents a gallon. you can buy 5 gal water jugs and refill them. it ends up being pretty cheap.
Maybe that's the way to go then. I'll have to take a look at the selfserve water machines in my area, I see them all over the place.

Lost the last Black Veil and the Cardinal Tetra over night. The only fish left is (1) Zerbra Danio...zipping around like the day I bough him. Also the longest resident in the tank. Other than that, (1) Cherry Red Shrimp, some Mylasian Trumpet Snails and misc shails that came in with live plants.

I'm going to take a "wait and see" before adding any fish, monitor conditions water through the week, make some water changes. Maybe by the weekend I can buy another Zebra Danio or two. They seem to be very hearty fish.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Some good news...I think.

I only have the one Zebra Danio left along with lots of plants, a shrimp and several small, small snails but I'm finaly seeing my Ammonia dropping. My Nitrites are coming up as are my Nitrates.

Saturday:
Ammonia +1.5
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0

Thursday (yesterday):
Ammonia -1.5
Nitrites .125
Nitrates 0

Friday (today):
Ammonia +0.5
Nitrites +.25
Nitrates -2.5

Question, because I only have one little fish in a 36 gallon tank, is now the time to add one or two more Zebra Danios?

I'm working on getting 2 of those refillable 5 gallon drinking water bottles and filling with either RO or distilled water for changes to knock down the hardness. That won't happen untill the weekend but that's only 24-36 hours out.
 
#31 ·
Zebra Danios are hearty and can typically withstand the cycling process, though it's not great for them etc. But you are likely almost there, as you are seeing nitrates. They prefer to be in groups of at least 5 or 6, so if you like the fish, adding them now probably won't be a terrible thing. Some may disagree, as nitrites are probably the most toxic, but I cycled my tank with Danios, (never lost one) though I'd never do it again, and after doing fishless cycling, that is the way to go (a bit late for you however) :)

Gwen
 
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#32 ·
First thing, as long as ammonia and nitrite are anything above zero, a 50% water change should be carried out, daily if needed. If you are using Prime or Ultimate as your conditioner (both handle ammonia and nitrite) you can do alternate day changes if after the second day ammonia or nitrite is above zero. Anything less is extremely stressful on any fish in the tank.

I would not add fish until the tank is cycled for what is now in it. Live plants would solve all this.
 
#33 · (Edited)
First thing, as long as ammonia and nitrite are anything above zero, a 50% water change should be carried out, daily if needed. If you are using Prime or Ultimate as your conditioner (both handle ammonia and nitrite) you can do alternate day changes if after the second day ammonia or nitrite is above zero. Anything less is extremely stressful on any fish in the tank.

I would not add fish until the tank is cycled for what is now in it. Live plants would solve all this.
Lots of live plants, all have been in there from day one except the Sword and the Spiralis which were added about two weeks ago.

Plants:
(1) Amazon Sword
( 6 bunches) Brazilian Pennywort (planted)
(1) Pigmy Chain Sword
(1) Anubias Nana Petite
(3) Anubias Barteri Var. Nana
(3) Moss Balls
(6) Vallisneria Spiralis

Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/fishtanks.php#ixzz1c54QtGb8
 
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