Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources

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jpepe1 03-16-2014 12:24 PM

Have you seen one?
Another thread got me thinking(not easy to do) Has anyone ever seen a Guppy -Mollie cross? I've heard of Muppies and Gollies but do these really exist? I've heard of an all girl type of molly, amazon mollies Are these real or fiction

Sylverclaws 03-17-2014 01:22 PM

Muppies exist, yes. I've seen them, I've had them. Gollies, haven't heard the switch term before. It bugs me about as much as Ligers and Tigons, silliness. lol A mix is a mix and needs one term, but that's just me.

The all female breed of molly I haven not heard of. That doesn't mean they don't exist. There are species of cat that are female only, or at least, MOSTLY female only. Tortoise Shell, torbies(which are tortoise shells mixed with tabbies) and Calico cats...Finding a male is -extremely- rare, so rare that they were once thought to be gender specific breeds of cats. Not so far out there to think fish could be too, or at least as much as calicos and tortoise shells are(I've seen one male calico, yet to find a male tortoise shell, but have seen male torbies).

According to the wiki, the Amazon Molly does in fact exist. But Wiki can be messed with and isn't always factual. =/ This is what the Wiki says on them though: The Amazon molly, Poecilia formosa, is a freshwater fish which reproduces through gynogenesis. This means although females must mate with a male, genetic material from the male is not incorporated into the already diploid egg cells the mother is carrying (except in extraordinary circumstances), resulting in clones of the mother being produced en masse. This characteristic has led to the Amazon molly becoming an all-female species. The common name acknowledges this trait as a reference to the Amazon warriors, a female-run society in Greek mythology. They are native to warm, fresh waters of northeastern Mexico and to the extreme southern parts of the U.S. state of Texas on the Rio Grande and the Nueces River.
In nature, the Amazon molly typically mates with a male from one of four different species, either P. latipinna, P. mexicana, P. latipunctata, or occasionally P. sphenops. One other male that could possibly exist in the Amazon molly's natural range that could induce parthenogenesis in Amazon molly females is the triploid Amazon molly males. These triploid males are very rare in nature and are not necessary in the reproduction of the species, which is why the species is considered to be all female.
The Amazon molly reaches sexual maturity anywhere from one to six months after birth, and typically has a brood (batch of young) between 60 and 100 fry (young) being delivered every 30–40 days. This lends itself to a large potential for population growth as long as host males are present. The wide variability in maturity dates and brood sizes is a result of genetic heritage, varying temperatures, and food availability. They will become sexually mature faster and produce larger broods in warm (approximately 80F) water that provides an overabundance of food.

jpepe1 03-17-2014 01:54 PM

Thanks Sylverclaws that was some great information. Those Amazons are pretty little fish,they don't sound particularly rare I wonder why I've never seen them available.I'm going to poke around and see if I can't find some for sale.

henningc 03-17-2014 04:27 PM

Just a side note, I always advise people not to create hybreds and if you do keep them in your tanks only. Usually the result of livebearer hybreds is some fairly ugly little fraile fish. Just a big no, no in my book.

rsskylight04 03-17-2014 05:29 PM

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Found this photo of muppy online. Its not my fish or my photo, just thought the forum might be interested to see one.

Sylverclaws 03-17-2014 05:42 PM

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Originally Posted by rsskylight04 (Post 4130130)
Found this photo of muppy online. Its not my fish or my photo, just thought the forum might be interested to see one.

Actually that looks like a Limia vittata, not a muppy. The photo I'm popping up for you is of a Cubam Limia, or Limia Vittata. Not a muppy, normal wild little fishy.

It's true, most don't come out healthy either. Some have before. I know someone who bred four generations of them as proof it could be done, they did breed and stayed healthy...but this is not the case for all of them. I have a little project going myself on muppies and platy/swordtail hybrids. So far i haven't had any issues, if I hit any nasty snags I'll no longer do that. It was an odd, and I'll admit, irresponsible project of mine. ^^; I have a red MM platy/swordtail now, looks like a longer framed platy, who is healthy, active, breeding and bright. But again, that's not true for all hybrids, some just come out sickly or damaged inside in some way.

Here's a video with some muppies for you guys. I can see why some would mistake a limia for one, they can sometimes come out similar:

rsskylight04 03-17-2014 06:47 PM

Good eye sylver the two fish are nearly identicle. It was labled as a muppy but ithink your right. The tailfins are a bit different but...

BWG 03-17-2014 07:17 PM

I'm not sure why Wikipedia is unreliable as a source, but some random video by some random poster on Youtube is better.

Do guppies and mollies hybridize? Well the Innes books claimed they did rarely and the results were always sterile. I'm really not convinced of all the people that say they have them though. I'm more inclined to believe their females were storing sperm.

As to Xiphophorus hyrbids, well those happen all the time. Even in nature you have what were once considered valid species in X. roseni and X. kosszanderi that are now know to be naturally occurring hybrids. Breeding platies and swordtails together is hardly irresponsible and not something that needs worried about as far as polluting other gene pools by selling them. Those species have been crossed since the 1920s and the average aquarium fish is not pure. The only concern with crossing them is melanoma XFins

Likewise the average molly is not pure. Guppy X Endler crosses are not a big deal since there are already plenty of strains that are Class K. If they are a concern, then why aren't all the Class P's that are sold as Class N's without being able to trace them all the way back to the wild?

Sylverclaws 03-17-2014 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by BWG (Post 4130738)
I'm not sure why Wikipedia is unreliable as a source, but some random video by some random poster on Youtube is better.

Only so much people can do with proof unless they're going to drag everyone there to bear witness to them being born, raised and kept away from boys(not too hard since even before they get color or a penis males are kinda obvious after a couple weeks with their shapes, usually...), bred and all that. However you are correct about it. I mean look at the creepy hoax stuff they have on there too.

Problem with the wiki is: Anyone can change the info around. Heck, one of my friends did a wiki page on a friend in a chat that was as much bull as you could possibly think of. lol's hard to find valid sources for some things, especially the raresies. It would be lovely if there was a lot more fact on here though. Especially when people are trying to learn.

@ rsskylight04 There are a few types of Limias...however, now that I take a good look at that one, yours does look a lot more guppy than limia. =o I wonder....I don't think it's a hybrid, but it's sure possible. Or perhaps guppies and limia can interbreed? lol I know nothing about that one, just that they're both livebearers, but not how closely they may or may not be related.

Have you seen the speckled mosquito fish? They also look a bit like your photo.

And my video looks like mollies with colorful tails, if they're not muppies, I'd certainly like to know what they actually are. Pure mollies with colors like that without the risk of genetic defects, except from the normal accidental or intentional inbreeding... me want. :3

BWG 03-17-2014 10:51 PM

Wikipedia is what it is, however I've found the science parts to be very on point when it comes to information and also pretty up to date when it comes to thing like nomenclature changes. The sources are there to be checked.

Poecilia systemics are confusing to say the least. Some researcher split off genera, others include subgenera. It's in need of a revision. Phylogenic tests have shown Acanthophacelus (guppy subgenera) and Micropoecilia (genera or subgenera depending) to be sister taxon to Mollienesia, Limia, and Pamphorichthys. So mollies are more closely related to Limia than they are to guppies.

I honestly do not buy that video. You're telling me that crossbreeding species would result in homogeneous fish after one generation that differ only in the color of the unpaired fins. You're mixing genes so to me it is more likely that some would take more after one parent over the other. Instead you have identical fish. It's not that easy to fix a type.

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