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Question about cycling a new tank

3K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  wicked 
#1 ·
Hello,

I had a few questions regarding cycling a new tank. First I'll describe the setup. I have a 50gal tank with a canister filter rated for 70gal, a heater rated for 65gal, a turbine powerhead rated at 850GPH, and a two air stones.

When I first filled the aquarium, I used 5gal of water from another cycled aquarium and the rest with fresh water with correct amount of conditioner. I have transfered the used filter from my 30gal pump into the new tank, as well as moving over the drift wood. Also added new sand that had been thoroughly rinsed.

The first fish we transfered were 2 medum sized gold fish (about 4-5 inches. They have been mating in my 20 Gal) and 5 small gold fish (about 2 inches) from my 30 gal. The larger female had layed eggs on the first day I had introduced them to the tank. I had removed the larger gold fish once I noticed them laying eggs but the whole bottom of the tank is now covered with eggs, some fertalized and some not.

It's been 1 week from starting this process and now with only 5 small gold fish, the ammonia and nitrite levels have spiked past the scale that my testing kit can measure. I did a 10% water change and was recommended to use Superbac to introduce benificial bateria. It's been 3 days from using super back and my readings are still spiking as far as ammonia and nitrite. I have ony tested for ammonia and nitirite.

My questions are whether or not the gold fish eggs are contributing to the toxicity of the water?

How often should I perform 10% water changes while the levels of ammonia and nitrite are spiking?

Is the sand trapping gasses that are contributing to the levels of toxins and what is the correct way to clean the sand? (first time I've used sand)

Should the temprature be kept at 76F?

Are the air stones interfearing with the cycling process?

Or am I just impatient? ;)

Thanks for viewing and any input is greatly appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
Hello,

Cycling is a pretty long process and, when possible, should not be done with any animals in the tank as high levels of ammonia/nitrite is part of the process.

Now, to your questions:

1) The gold fish eggs are contributing to the toxicity of the water, but anything organic would also contribute. In fact, there needs to be some organic waste in order for the tank to cycle. As such, if you do not mind all of the eggs dying (most probably already are), then you could leave them in the tank as an organic source of ammonia.

2) How often to change out water depends on who you talk to and whether or not you are using live fish to cycle the tank. As using live fish can result in unnecessary fish deaths, I will assume you are going to fishless cycle. For a fishless cycle there is no need to do water changes. However, there is some marginal evidence out there that doing 25% water changes every week can speed up a cycle a bit. Doing 25% water changes also helps build healthy habits that will be beneficial later in the life cycle of the tank.

3) The sand is probably not trapping any gases at this point, but anaerobic zones can form in sand later on. One way to prevent this is to manually stir up the sand while holding a gravel siphon over the surface of the sand (don't get the gravel siphon too close to the sand or you will suck up sand instead of debris). Since sand requires extra care (good cleanings at least every two weeks), it is definitely not a suggested substrate. Another item to consider about sand is that some sands can release toxic compounds into the water. Please be sure that your sand is inert.

4) The temperature you keep the tank at depends on the fish you plan to keep. If you plan to keep goldfish, then the temperature can be a little lower (65 degrees Fahrenheit for most goldies, 68-73 for fancy goldfish). Set your temperature to match your expectations regarding the fish you want.

5) The air stones are probably unnecessary given how much flow you already have in the tank, but they will not harm the cycling process unless you use copper junctions or valves. Copper is toxic to many aquatic organisms and can act as an antimicrobial, keeping the cycle from proceeding normally.

My personal recommendations are to remove all or most of the eggs if you want to save them and do some research on cycling processes. You can find some information on cycling by clicking the link in my signature, by using the "search" tool on this forum, or by doing web searches.

Thanks for Your Time,
MOA
 
#4 ·
You can do 50% water changes daily, it will only help. Since bacteria does not live in the water but rather in the substrate, surfaces, filter, doing large water changes will not impact it negatively. It is recommended that ammonia be kept <.25, so if it takes a 50% water change daily to accomplish that... well then thats what should be done. If you don't have any live plants then the airstones should be fine, however if you DO have live plants the airstones should be taken out since they drive CO2 out of the water.
As for the temp I am not sure, we have a goldfish pro on here that can help you with that... A quick search shows a variety of recommended temps ranging from 62 to high 70s, so I wouldn't worry until more experienced input! :)
 
#5 ·
76 degrees Fahrenheit is fine. You do not need to adjust it. If it's not broken, don't attempt to fix it.
 
#6 ·
Everyone missed the most important sentence, "I used 5gal of water from another cycled aquarium". If you have another aquarium or know someone who does (where ever you got the 5g of cycled water from), simply take out the filter media (sponge) from the established tank and put it in your new tank and shake it around so some gunk comes off in your new tank. It will clear up rather quickly with your new filter running. This is called "seeding" and insyantly puts the beneficial bacteria in your new tank. This drastically increases the cycle process and most times eliminates it all together. It's an instant cycle.
 
#7 ·
Everyone missed the most important sentence, "I used 5gal of water from another cycled aquarium". If you have another aquarium or know someone who does (where ever you got the 5g of cycled water from), simply take out the filter media (sponge) from the established tank and put it in your new tank and shake it around so some gunk comes off in your new tank. It will clear up rather quickly with your new filter running. This is called "seeding" and insyantly puts the beneficial bacteria in your new tank. This drastically increases the cycle process and most times eliminates it all together. It's an instant cycle.
I think YOU missed the more important sentence, he used a filter from this old tank.:lol:
 
#8 ·
When I first filled the aquarium, I used 5gal of water from another cycled aquarium and the rest with fresh water with correct amount of conditioner. I have transfered the used filter from my 30gal pump into the new tank, as well as moving over the drift wood. Also added new sand that had been thoroughly rinsed.
Based on this statement, there is a piece of information we are missing in this thread. As already pointed out, moving an established biofilter from one aquarium to another will result in the new aquarium, for all practical purposes, not going through a cycling process.

Which makes me wonder, when you say you "moved" the old filter... what brand and model is the old filter? And how did you go about moving it?

The second comment I have to make is the stocking of this tank. Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you "only" have 5 small goldfish. Truth be know, 5 small goldfish produce a lot of waste. If you think about body mass and girth, this is like saying you only have 50 Neon Tetras. 5 goldfish, even small goldfish, is a lot of biomass to add to a system all at once, especially a biofilter that was previously only seeded to handed a 30 gallon tank.

Finally, just a point of clarification . MOA, this is not a fishless cycle. There are already fish contributing to this situation.

Also, the use of sand has been rather widely documented on the freshwater section of this forum, and our members are using sand very successfully. The appearance is wonderful, and the maintenance needs are not much different from gravel. For this reason, I have to disagree that sand is not a preferred substrate. Instead, I would simply say that sand is a substrate which is not as common as gravel, and perhaps has a lot of misunderstanding by those who have not used it.
 
#9 ·
Thanks everyone for the great info!

I forgot to mention that I have about a 10" red devil and a red chilli crab in my 30gal that I'm planning on moving to the 50 gal. One of the reasons I think I need so much aeration is for the crab.

First I will remove the gold fish from the 50 gal and continue to cycle the tank without any fish.

The filter element and the 5 gal of water I moved over was from my 30 gal, which has an over the top filter. Marineland penguin I believe. I just dropped it in the 50 gal about a week ago, and it's currently sitting in the sand.

I purchased a master test kit from API and performed all the tests with the below results.

pH = 8.2
Ammonia = 8.0
Nitrite = Approx 3.5
Nitrate = Approx 7.5

I't looks like I'm at the phase where nitrite is rising and ammonia should be going down. I'll continue doing 25-50% water changes daily and monitor the above levels.

I have another question now that I'm testing pH. The Red Devil prefers 7.0 pH from what I've researched but can also adapt to pH between 6.0 and 8.0. The current tank he has been in for the past 3 years has a pH of 6.0. I'm not planning on having any plants, just rocks and driftwood. Should I use any pH adjusters, specifically API pH 7.0? My LFS recommended using it every time I perform a water change.

Thanks again!
 
#10 ·
Dont use pH adjusters/stabalizers/whatever they call it. It will be very difficult to keep a stable and balanced pH, never mind the headache of doing so. Actually it will never be stable and will constantly bounce around. A few people here have altered pH with different methods which are stable and successful, I'll let them chime in
 
#12 ·
Adjusting pH can be stressful to the point of killing some fish, and often it is not necessary anyway.

The pH of water is determined by the mineral and organic content in the water. Water that is "pure" in having no minerals and no organic material will have a pH of 7; distilled water is such. No water in nature is absolutely 7.0 because other things affect it, and to my knowledge no fish live in neutral water so it is not something I would aim for. Mineral, generally calcium and magnesium, increase the hardness of water and usually this raises the pH accordingly to be basic or alkaline, though not always. On the opposite side, water that has no mineral content but has high organic material will be acidic.

The mineral content determines the carbonate hardness in the water and this will buffer the pH; the more carbonate, the more resistant the pH will be to change. The danger with chemicals that supposedly adjust pH is that they can interact with the buffers in the water, and the pH will be fluctuating up and down accordingly, and this is very stressful to all fish. Knowing the carbonate hardness of your water, measured as dKH or ppm [parts per million] KH is necessary in order to determine which method of lowering the pH may work and if it is worth it or even needed. If your tap water KH is relatively high, the water will be very resistant to any lowering in pH; but if the tap water is low in KH, it will be easier to adjust the pH. Aquaria normally lower in Ph over time, but this depends upon the buffering capacity.

Lowering pH can be done with peat, though depending upon the extent you want to lower the pH this can take a lot of peat and it needs replacing as it wears out. It works by adding tannins to the water, turning it slightly yellow/brown. Tropical "blackwater" streams are highly acidic due to the dissolved tannins, and are the colour of very strong tea as a result. Driftwood may lower the pH marginally, the most I have come across is .2 in a tank with lots of wood, so this is not a viable method to lower pH significantly. RO (Reverse Osmosis) is reliable and others with experience doing this can comment.

But as you have a current tank with a pH of 6, something is either causing this or something else is raising the pH to 8 in the new tank. What is the pH of your tap water? And do you know the KH or even the GH (general hardness)? These answers will allow me or others to offer suggestions.

Byron.
 
#13 ·
Just adding to Byron's thoughts. It is much easier to raise pH than to lower pH, because adding carbonates is easily accomplished and tested. If you are fortunate enough to have a lower pH in your tap water and low hardness values, then perhaps this is just a matter of adding a buffer to increase to the desired pH.

That being said, it is much more likely that your tap water pH is higher than the level you desire. Which begs the question of how the pH reads 6.0 in the old tank, as Byron mentioned.

This is a strange situation. Two tanks, same source water, huge difference in tank water pH. Isn't this fun!
 
#14 · (Edited)
Thanks All

The 30 gal has a pH of 6 currently and may be due to the 3 large pieces of Malaysian drifwood and infrequent water changes for the past 3 years? Or maybe another factor is there is a lot of algae that grows in this tank that I have to clean out every water change.

The new 50 gal (1 week into cycling) has thousands of eggs from a goldfish I was using to cycle the tank. I removed the 2 larger goldfish that were breeding and left the 5 smaller goldfish in for a week before removing them today. Not sure if that has any effect on the pH. I moved the driftwood from the 30 gal to the 50 gal tank about 5 days ago.

My tap water straight from the faucet without conditioner is at 7.6 pH. Unfortunatly I don't have a GH or KH testing kit. I'll have to pick one up.
 
#15 ·
Thanks All

The 30 gal has a pH of 6 currently and may be due to the 3 large pieces of Malaysian drifwood and infrequent water changes for the past 3 years? Or maybe because there is alot of algae that grows in this tank that I have to clean out every water change.

The new 50 gal (1 week into cycling) has thousands of eggs from a goldfish I was using to cycle the tank. I removed the 2 larger goldfish that were breeding and left the 5 smaller goldfish in for a week before removing them today. Not sure if that has any effect on the pH. I moved the driftwood from the 30 gal to the 50 gal tank about 5 days ago.

My tap water straight from the faucet without conditioner is at 7.6 pH. Unfortunatly I don't have a GH or KH testing kit. I'll have to pick one up.
I'm suspecting the KH of your tap water is fairly low. This would allow the acidity in the 30g to increase, lowering the pH, especially as you are not regular in your partial water changes. This can be dangerous.

When you do a pwc, you are removing acidic water and replacing it with basic/alkaline water (pH 7.6). The ammonias produced by the fish in acidic water, esp at pH 6.0 which is where i keep my tanks so I have experience, will be ammonium which is not toxic. When you do the pwc, the influx of tap water probably causes the pH to rise, and if this is sufficient to raise the tank above 7, you then have the ammonium changing back into ammonia. You should be able to comprehend what this can mean for the fish.

Regular weekly pwc would prevent this, because the stability of the tank would be more established and not subject to wide fluctuations. When I do my 50% pwc every week with tap water that is 6.8 or 7, it raises the pH in the tanks from 6 to 6.4 which is fine. Same as the diurnal fluctuation in planted tanks. There is also the issue of pollution; without a regular weekly pwc of 50%, with large fish in the tank (a 10-inch red devil is large for a 30g) you have an enormous buildup of waste that no filter can remove, only the pwc. Waste being urine and liquefied solid waste broken down by bacteria but not removed until the pwc. I would be very careful with that fish, with respect to water parameter adjustments, given what he has been subjected to. And I am not meaning to be anything but constructive here; you have in my opinion a very dangerous situation that needs careful handling for the health of the fish.

The wood contributes to the acidification of the water, but insignificantly; it is the buildup of organics due to infrequent pwc that is causing the pH to drop so drastically. And that is as you probably know the cause of the algae problems. Everything is related in an aquarium. There is absolutely no better remedy or medication or maintenance practice in any aquarium than a regular weekly pwc.

Byron.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Ok I cleaned the tank and did about a 50% water change. The pH is now at about 7.4. The red devil is now very active, digging and attacking the glass. Hope I didn't stress him out.

The wierd readings must be due to lack of proper aquarium maintanace... At times the tank would go 1-2 months without a water change. Time to get back into the habbit of changing the water more frequently.

Thanks everyone for all the geat information!

EDIT

I read your post Byron right after I posted the above. Is it a good Idea to remove the Driftwood? I have transferred them to the other tank. I will test the ammonia levels right now. If the levels are high I'm assuming I should do another pwc. I had no idea how important weekly water changes are...
 
#17 ·
The wood is insignificant, leave it, as it contains bacteria that will help in the ammonia crisis you now have. Having done it, just observe the fish; at signs of stress (gasping, reddened gills, erratic behaviour) do a 50% pwc. Of course, if you have a good water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia, that will help. Prime and others detoxify ammonia by changing it to ammonium, the process I explained earlier, so the fish will not be stressed. And Prime claims to detoxify nitrite, though I've not managed to find out how. However, I have read elsewhere that these detoxifying processes only last 24 hours, after which Prime no longer detoxifies. If that is true, and levels rise, another pwc daily will ease things. Just monitor the fish. There may be enough bacteria in the tank to handle the ammonia.

Nitrosomonas bacteria multiplies by binary division, and can do this every 9 hours under optimum conditions [being pH above 7 and temp normal around 77-79]. Nitrospira take longer, up to 20 hours. So once they are in the tank, and if "food" is available (ammonia and nitrite) they will do their work.

Of course, the other thing about a pH of 6 is that some authorities claim the bacteria dies off at a pH below 6.4 from what I've read. It is generally accepted I believe that nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria do weaken in acidic water, and at some point cease to multiply and die off.

Anyway, use a good detoxifying conditioner, and monitor the fish's behaviour and be ready to do a 50% pwc every day if necessary.

Byron.
 
#18 ·
Thanks so much for the helpful information. I tested the ammonia and it's at 0.125. He is very aggressive but not gasping for air or staying on the top of the tank. I did have to turn the light of so he would stop attacking the glass though. He also eat when fed. I basically dropped the food in his mouth!

I'm going to do another wc, test the water, and keep an eye on him. Hopefully he'll be in his new 50 gal once it cycles :-D
 
#19 ·
Am I understanding correctly that you're planning on putting a red devil into a tank with goldfish? This seems like a very bad idea. Even if you've got the temperature of the tank adjusted to fit the needs of both fish, the red devil is likely going to kill the goldfish. Red devils are mean, mean fish. Actually, depending on how big it is, it might likely eat the smaller goldfish outright.
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the concern. I have kept the red devil with the 5 small goldfish in the 30 gal for about a year now. He didn't attack them and I think it's due to the poor water conditions (I had changed jobs that required me to travel making it hard to perform regular water changes. Currently, I am able to care for the tank properly.).

The goldfish are now in a 20 gal separate from the devil. Good thing because when the condition of the water quality increased in the 30 gal he became and is currently very aggressive. I can't come within 5 feet of the tank without him furiously attacking the glass. Also I had to turn the light off because he was attacking his reflection. I had no idea how fiesty he was until now. I though he just had a low aggression personality but I was completely wrong. It's going to be interesting transferring him to the 50 gal once it's cycled. Think I'm going to have cover the floor around the tanks with a tarp.

I did have him with my red chilli crab for a little while but now that he is so aggressive, I have moved the crab to it's own tank. I'm possibly considering selling the devil due to him being so aggressive. There are no other tank mates I can think of to combine him with other than a large female devil. My LFS has a 10" female devil for $50 but I need to do more research on how to interduce her into the tank properly.
 
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