Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/)
-   Characins (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/characins/)
-   -   new ? Hyphessobrycon species (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/characins/new-hyphessobrycon-species-22069/)

Byron 03-11-2009 07:10 PM

new ? Hyphessobrycon species
 
1 Attachment(s)
Last October I acquired a small school of characin that the store called "red line tetra". These had been received direct from an exporter in Peru. I thought they might be Hyphessobrycon amapaensis, but after they coloured up in my aquarium this didn't seem likely. I did find one photo (after a very long search on the internet) from a German site that described this fish as an unnamed species of Hyphessobrycon from Peru. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether or not this fish has been described and named, and if so, what it is. A photo of part of the school is attached; the fish in question is the tetra with the orange-red lateral stripe.

While we're on the photo, I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm (or refute) my thinking that the larger darker fish to the right is Hyphessobrycon peruvianus. The smaller tetra in the centre of the photo is H. loretoensis as far as I know. I've come across some variable photos of H. peruvianus. Dr. Gery once commented that these two could be the same, or subspecies. I am hopeful that his review of the Hyphessobrycon species will be completed and published, unfortunately left unfinished when we lost this great scientist in 2007.

Thanking you,
Byron Hosking.

cerianthus 03-13-2009 05:08 PM

Although it has been awhile since had any characins, but I have different thoughts.
What you describe as H. peruvianus seems more like H. herbertaxelrodi for couple of reasons. First, H. pervianus has white tip on the tip of all the fins except perctoral and adipose fin. Black coloration is not as pronounced as shown in your pic. Golden striped just above black color is not as distinctively noticeable either. Dark patches will develop onto tail also rather stops at caudal peduncle as your fish indicates.. Perhaps subspecies from different locale or neither.

As far as H. loretoensis, mine have totally different colors and marking (perhaps pic doesnt do justice)
and black on tail was not on mine. Black stripe/patch stop at the caudal peducle. Stripe above thicker black stripe was more of copper color than orange. And edges/tip of dorsal and ana fin were white as matured.. Again, i maybe wrong.

I remember when lfs was receiving shipments of wild fish, such as Cardinals and Rummys, etc., I would standing there to pick out all the odd fish rather than main attraction. lfs probably have thought of me as PIA KID, lol!
Actually had a quite of collection of identifyable but hard to obtain and unidentifyable characins.

Did not mean to cause more confusion but wanted share my thoughts.

Byron 03-14-2009 04:49 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cerianthus (Post 179546)
Although it has been awhile since had any characins, but I have different thoughts.
What you describe as H. peruvianus seems more like H. herbertaxelrodi for couple of reasons. First, H. pervianus has white tip on the tip of all the fins except perctoral and adipose fin. Black coloration is not as pronounced as shown in your pic. Golden striped just above black color is not as distinctively noticeable either. Dark patches will develop onto tail also rather stops at caudal peduncle as your fish indicates.. Perhaps subspecies from different locale or neither.

As far as H. loretoensis, mine have totally different colors and marking (perhaps pic doesnt do justice)
and black on tail was not on mine. Black stripe/patch stop at the caudal peducle. Stripe above thicker black stripe was more of copper color than orange. And edges/tip of dorsal and ana fin were white as matured.. Again, i maybe wrong.

I remember when lfs was receiving shipments of wild fish, such as Cardinals and Rummys, etc., I would standing there to pick out all the odd fish rather than main attraction. lfs probably have thought of me as PIA KID, lol!
Actually had a quite of collection of identifyable but hard to obtain and unidentifyable characins.

Did not mean to cause more confusion but wanted share my thoughts.

Some good thoughts here, thanks. There has been confusion over these species in the literature (see below), and the pending/ongoing review of the genus may sort them out. I do have a couple of observations.

The fish I believe is the Loreto Tetra is nearly identical to the photo in Baensch & Riehl, Aquarium Atlas, I, p. 291, where it is identified as H. loretoensis. The black mark in the caudal fin is more of a shadow in real life, that is, darker pigment but not quite so "black" as in the photo [though, note the attached photo of H. loretoensis from FishBase]. The photo in Gery's Characoids of the World is to me nearly identical, and he names it H. loretoensis. Another photo of this same fish in Dr. Sterba's Aquarium Handbook has it named H. peruvianus. Sterba's book was published in 1972. In the 1977 edition of Exotic Tropical Fishes, Dr. Axelrod comments that the fish known as H. metae is now H. peruvianus as detailed by Dr. Gery in the May 1961 TFH. As Baensch is the latest text I have, and they had personal communication with Dr. Gery over these fish [AA, II, p. 278], I will go on the assumption that this is H. loretoensis, although I am certainly prepared to be corrected.

As for the darker fish, the photo in AA, III, p. 139 is quite similar although the white tips of the fins are less noticeable on my fish, but on a couple of them they are certainly there. The fish is named H. peruvianus. I wouldn't think this could be H. herbertaxelrodi, since this latter fish is stated to come from the Mato Grosso and Rio Paraguay in southern Brazil. The fish I have are wild caught in the Peruvian Amazon, there is no question of that from the exporter himself. I think my fish (whatever they are!) are closer to the photos I have been able to find of H. peruvianus, but again I am willing to be corrected.

A last thought: I note your comment about an orange stripe on the assumed H. loretoensis, and I'm wondering if you're looking at the correct fish. There is no orange strip on the centre (top) fish which is the one I'm assuming is H. loretoensis; the orange strip is on the fish to the right that I am trying to identify.

Heiko Bleher 03-27-2009 01:42 PM

Hi Byron,

have not been able to answer earlier, but you know that your photos are lousy and not very good for identification. So far I had all for you correctly identifies, also the lower one shown here, everyone knows, is H. loretoensis. But the one you still looking fort an ID is, what I wrote you in our e-mail, almost certainly Hemigrammus coeruleus which I collected in the lower Rio Negro all the way to Peru and has even an much wider distribution along the Amazon basin. Only in nature it has much brighter colours than in aquaria (never seen it in an aquarium as beautiful with such bright colours as I have collected it in nature). Also remember, your fish seem to have been very well feed...

All the best and keep up the good work (and the net does not give you most of the answers, H. amapensis photo was there only because Zarske & Géry had given the permission with the publication, very few scientists have a life photo and even less give it to the world-wide web).

Always

Heiko
Aquapress Bleher - Home

Byron 03-28-2009 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heiko Bleher (Post 182846)
Hi Byron,

have not been able to answer earlier, but you know that your photos are lousy and not very good for identification. So far I had all for you correctly identifies, also the lower one shown here, everyone knows, is H. loretoensis. But the one you still looking fort an ID is, what I wrote you in our e-mail, almost certainly Hemigrammus coeruleus which I collected in the lower Rio Negro all the way to Peru and has even an much wider distribution along the Amazon basin. Only in nature it has much brighter colours than in aquaria (never seen it in an aquarium as beautiful with such bright colours as I have collected it in nature). Also remember, your fish seem to have been very well feed...

All the best and keep up the good work (and the net does not give you most of the answers, H. amapensis photo was there only because Zarske & Géry had given the permission with the publication, very few scientists have a life photo and even less give it to the world-wide web).

Always

Heiko
Aquapress Bleher - Home

Many thanks indeed Heiko, I'm in agreement. Thanks also for our personal emails sorting out the Hyphessobrycon peruvianus/ H. metae. Hope to meet up in Portland, I'll keep in touch.

Best wishes,
Byron.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2