Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources

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-   -   Apistogramma hybridization (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/fish-breeding/apistogramma-hybridization-174889/)

jakinthebox 05-10-2013 11:14 PM

Apistogramma hybridization
 
Hi, I have recently obtained a pairs of Apistogramma agassizii, A. cacatuoides and A. mcmasteri. They are currently in a quarantine tank and all the females have become bright yellow, I think they are 'in the mood' but don't want any hybridization between the different types. Is there any danger of this happening? Which Apistos can be housed in the same tank without risk of hybrid fry? I don't want to move any of them unless absolutely necessary since they have just settled in are all getting along peacefully.

Do Apistogramma only hybridize within their own complex or group? Can A. borelli, A. trifasciata , A. panduro A. baneshi, A. eunotus, A. viejita, A. caetei or A. nijsseniany be housed with any of the above without cross breeding? I have had a hard time finding information on this subject.

Thanks! Jaki

jakinthebox 05-13-2013 10:15 PM

Has anyone spawned Apistogramma crosses?
 
How about sharing any experience of Apistogramma crosses? Has anyone had different Apistogramma that spawned producing fry, which types of Apisto's were they and what were the circumstances, ie did they spawn only because there was no other choice of mate or did the cross occur even with others of their own kind to choose from.

Chesh 05-14-2013 07:28 PM

I wish I had an answer to give you! I've been lurking on this thread in the hopes that someone would be able to help out. I love Apistos, but am still in the research phase of keeping them, so I'm of no help here. . . :/

Either way? I'm REALLY jealous of your new arrivals. I can't wait to follow in your footsteps!

redchigh 05-15-2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Viable crosses are usually among species in the same species-group. Crosses of which I have seen photos: A. sp. Mariae (commbrae-complex species X by other regani-group species), A. sp. Tefé X A. agassizii, A. sp. Orangeflossen/Orange-stripes (A. bitaeniata X paucisquamis-complex? species), A. macmasteri/A. viejita cross(?) (wild fish), A. sp. Schuppenfleck/Scale-spots (wild cross A. macmasteri X A. hoignei?), and Römer shows several nijsseni-group species crosses in the original description of A. baenschi.
I'm unable to post a link, but type a couple sentances into Google in quotation marks.
Sorry i cant be more help.

jakinthebox 05-16-2013 12:01 PM

Guess what....SPAWNING!!!!!
 
3 Attachment(s)
Thanks for your replies guys, I have news- my A. cacatuoides 'Orange Flash' has spawned! :-D YAY i'm so happy!! I think it happened yesterday but I could not be sure until today as the urn they have chosen to spawn in has a tiny hole so it took a lot of contortionist type movements with the torch and now have a bad knot in my shoulder but finally I saw the eggs:) there are not many (that I can see anyway) but both parents are doing a good job. I have named Orange Flash male 'Cane' after the blood vendetta he now has against any of his brothers (or sisters) coming anywhere near the urn, the female is 'Cloe' a little sweetie. Cane showed no interest in Cloe to begin with and practically ignored her presence entirely so I was very surprised that they had spawned so quickly and so young, they have only been here for a week and are both under an inch long. It seems that the other males have each paired up with a female of his own kind which I'm very glad about. So far there is only one fish who actively courts other types and that is the A. agassizii 'Super Red' female who will flirt with the other males briefly but always promptly returns to her mate. Only time will tell how strong the pair bonds are.

redchigh thanks for the info, that's an interesting thread with some good points. At least now I have a few combinations I can avoid (might start a list of sorts).It echoed some of my own thoughts when I was choosing my Apisto's. It figures that the more closely related the higher the chance of hybrids so I picked Apisto'd in 3 different species groups. I also have a theory based on past observations of (mainly) parrots. Usually (with parrots anyway) hybridization only occurs if there are a lack of suitable mates to choose from, these pairings are made more by necessity than by choice, a birds first choice will always be another of its own kind. Then there are of course exceptions usually brought about by mistaken self-identity. For example in the wild Major Mitchel cockatoos will often take over the nesting sites of Rose breasted Cockatoos. If there is a chick in the nest it will be tossed out, but occasionally an egg is overlooked and hatches with the Major Mitchel clutch and is raised by those parents, when the chick grows up it thinks it is a Major Mitchel, flocks with them and is attracted to them rather than Rose-breasted Cockatoos, sometimes these birds find a lone Major Mitchel to partner with and viable hybrids occur. I suspect that parental fish (and fry) may behave in a similar manner.

Apistogramma are not easy to come by here in Australia, even these 'common' ones and sadly it is getting worse as many of the cichlids imported in the past are not allowed to enter the country so I think we should be doing what we can to preserve the lines we do have. I would love to have the wild types, not wild caught but true representations of what is found in nature but that's not going to be easy to find here. I am just sooooo glad that I found my guys, I had been looking for them for a long, long time! Lucky that they are all alive and well too, airport pickup was arranged from the airport in the next town but they never showed up, I waited for flight after flight to arrive and nearly flayed the manager with my tongue when he told me I should go home and wait there. Then I received a phone call from a pilot who had my fish in ANOTHER CITY 80km away!!! I had already driven 65km to get to the first airport. When i finally received them the water was so cold I had to warm them under my top against my skin on the way home.

Chesherca you would love them, they are so full of character and great to watch their behavior I can sit in front of the tank watching for hours. I snapped some pics of Cane standing guard outside the urn, they are not very good he is always on the go patroling, could not get one of Cloe she's always in the urn tending to her eggs. I'm a bit unsure what to do wtih the other fish, I want to remove them into their proper homes but they have only been in the quarantine tank for a week. They look and behave healthy enough. How long should a new fish remain in quarantine anyway? It would be easy enough to move Cane, Cloe and their urn but I would have to set up another tank which would not have the infusora that the fry first feed on. You can see in the photo of the whole tank what a good job Cane is doing keeping away all 'suspicious' loiterers, the tank looks empty.

Chesh 05-18-2013 12:50 AM

Thank you so much for posting an update! (and to Red for offering input ^.^) Cane is an absolutely gorgeous creature! Oh, I'm SO EXCITED for you!!!

You're right - I would love them, I WILL. . .one day, I'm going to have my turn. Until then, thank you for being so kind to share your experiences with me (and others). I can't wait to hear the next chapter. . .

The story of your hunt for these animals, and their botched arrival is just. . . wow. I can see myself doing the same thing to try to keep the poor things warm and safely to their home. That's the kind of dedication I LOVE to see! They've already proven that they're happy with you, I'd say. Here's hoping to many future spawnings!

The QT tank is lovely, would be lovely as a show tank - seems like your fish are enjoying it thus far, as well ;) The question of how long to QT a new arrival is a tricky one, and one that you'll find a million different answers to. Everyone has their own way. I personally QT new additons for a minimum of 6 weeks, sometimes longer depending on where the animals have come from, their behavior, if they're wild caught, etc. though the most common 'default' answer I've seen on this forum is 4. It really is something you'll have to decide for yourself where your comfort level lies. Unless you're treating in advance of illness, there isn't any way to be positive about such things, but I would give them at least a few weeks to have a chance to destress from what sounds like a dramatic shipping and arrival! (though I must say at least two of them seem to have settled right in!) Clean water and a calm environment go so far in allowing any fish to protect itself from harm :)

As much as I hate to say this. . . with them being all in the tank together right now, chances are pretty slim for this particular brood making it though. I don't know these fish well enough to be able to predict what would happen if you moved the little family right now, anyway. I'd be inclined to leave them as they are. If they're anything like my little rams, even if this batch doesn't survive, they'll be back at it again in record time.

Best of luck to you! Please do keep us posted on how things turn out - and CONGRATULATIONS!!!

jakinthebox 05-20-2013 10:25 AM

THANK YOU!!! And guess what, the eggs have hatched!! I've been glued to the glass with my torch light since I saw them, they are so tiny and are skittering about break dancing now and then. I'm torn between pulling out all the stops to try to save them and not wanting to cause any unnecessary stress to the fish. You are of course right, they will probably spawn again but then a voice says 'save those poor darling creatures'. While I wrestle with the decision I've prepared an infusoria culture with lettuce on the windowsill. If they do make it at least they will be well fed. In the meantime I'm going to email the breeder I got their parents from and ask him if they will be able to protect the fry if left in the tank. How often do your rams spawn?

Chesh 05-20-2013 11:32 AM

EEEP! I suspect that I know exactly how you feel!!! Congrats on the wee wiggly ones! I hope they thrive!

My rams have only just reached maturity, and my bonded pair have been spawning every 4-6 weeks since. It's only been three times now, and in a community tank. . . not the best of luck keeping the spawn alive, though mom and dad have gotten better with each attempt, and the fry made it to free-swimming this last time around! I'm about to add some plants in the hope of helping them better protect their brood the next time. If (when?) that fails, I'll try moving the pair into their own tank and see how they do on their own.

Sorry, I can't ever resist babbling about my rambabies *luffs*

Hope all continues to go well there! It would be brilliant if they made it through on their very first attempt! Keep us up to date on how they do! *so excited*

redchigh 05-22-2013 06:49 PM

If you have any trouble feeding this brood, In about to start selling fry food that i use.

Your fish are beautiful.


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