Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources

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Ivanrad 12-23-2012 01:37 PM

33 gallon long
 
ICH freaking ich man. aids has infested my tank wheres the ICH shot when u need it. so i wake up this morning and my cardinals have ich on them and they are pretty lifeless. how the hell do u prevent ich? and why the hell cant everyone have a straight forward answer for aquarium salt. i mean cmon lets all be clear on what an ideal aquarium needs. please people, help me. Ive got plenty of live plants dont wanna kill em ofcourse but petsmart does. hell they use salt in every tank they have . sorry for the frustrations its the 21st century not the 1800's we need technology for our fish tanks .

Captain Jim Dandy 12-23-2012 06:14 PM

I've had good luck with two products for ich.. API "Quick Cure",as well as Mardel's Coppersafe. I've used it on bettas and guppies. Be very careful with tetras- I believe it calls for half dosages..read your directions.If you prefer salt only..this entails raising temps and lots of water changes.

AK Fresh Water 12-23-2012 06:17 PM

Raise the temp and add salt.

Byron 12-23-2012 06:59 PM

Raise the temp, yes, but do not add salt with such delicate fish. I'm not going to repeat the scientific facts, they are in my article on salt. Salt is the very last thing you want in a tank with characins.

Cardinals can tolerate high temps, so raising the tank to 90F for a week should deal with this, with no medications. Don't know what if any other fish are in the tank though, some cannot tolerate this.

I have had good success several times with raising the temp to 85F and using CopperSafe once; CS is obviously copper-based, but it is "mild" compared to most other medications which warn you to treat at half dose with fish like characins (tetra, hatchets, pencils). I do a major water change, with which I partially increase the temp, then adjust the heater to slowly raise it the rest to 85F. Add one dose of CS after the water change. After one full week, readjust the heater back to normal and let the tank naturally cool down. After another 4 days do a water change.

A note on ich. Ich is always present in every aquarium, as it is in nature. Fish will only become infected (to the extent you can see spots) if they are stressed. This is now the current thinking, and frankly nothing else makes any sense.:-)

Byron.

Captain Jim Dandy 12-23-2012 07:07 PM

Thank you Byron..sorry for bad advice.

JDM 12-23-2012 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron (Post 1360047)
A note on ich. Ich is always present in every aquarium, as it is in nature. Fish will only become infected (to the extent you can see spots) if they are stressed. This is now the current thinking, and frankly nothing else makes any sense.:-)

Byron.

Current?

I've done some reading on some of the diseases and parasites. Ich comes up often and everyone is surprised by its presence... I already thought that it was ubiquitous. Now I am surprised that this is "current" thinking.

Sorry if makes me sound pompassy and know it all (not my intent, far from it with my zero fish experience and two or three weeks of general research) but it looked pretty obvious with just my cursory bit of research.

Jeff.

AK Fresh Water 12-24-2012 01:41 AM

I hate to disagree with Byron, as he is extremely knowledgeable, but I stand firm in my belief that Ich is NOT in every aquarium. I don't deny however that it is extremely common, especially due to wholesaling. If Ich doesn't have a host to latch onto, it will die or in some cases will become dormant (though this is less common).
Ich isn't sitting in tanks for months or years, waiting to attack at any any sign of weakness.

It just so happens that stressed fish (usually from poor conditions in pet shops/becoming acclimated to a new tank) have compromised immune systems, which allows for Ich to more easily attack. It can't attack though if it's simply not there. Ich cannot live outside of water, so the only migration possible is via infected fish or water containing Ich. Just remember that every time you add new plants or fish, you are allowing another chance for Ich to invade your tank.

It's like mosquitoes. Yes, they are very common and most people are bound to get bitten by them. However, if you lived in a sealed off home it would be impossible for them to ever reach you.

JDM 12-24-2012 01:20 PM

Just a few references regarding Ich with the appropriate links, some of these are well worth reading... The last one is pretty dry but it is interesting to see the tie in with columnare. Read what will into them.

"Ich is so widespread that many experts feel that it is present in the environment of most aquariums, especially in larger holding tanks, rearing ponds of breeders, collectors, and wholesalers. In fact, just about every aquarium fish will come into contact with this protozoan at several times in its life. Because it is so widespread, most fish have developed a good immune response against the disease to allow them to fight off the protozoan infection before it ever causes any symptoms. "

Cause, Treatment, and Prevention of Ich in Freshwater Fish

"Endosymbiotic bacteria were identified in the parasitic ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, a common pathogen of freshwater fish. PCR amplification of DNA prepared from two isolates of I. multifiliis, using primers that bind conserved sequences in bacterial 16S rRNA genes, generated an ∼1,460-bp DNA product, which was cloned and sequenced. Sequence analysis demonstrated that 16S rRNA gene sequences from three classes of bacteria were present in the PCR product. These included Alphaproteobacteria (Rickettsiales), Sphingobacteria, and Flavobacterium columnare. DAPI (4′,6-diamidino-2-phenylindole) staining showed endosymbionts dispersed throughout the cytoplasm of trophonts and, in most, but not all theronts."

Endosymbiotic Bacteria in the Parasitic Ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

"As Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is an obligate parasite, it is thought that its survival between outbreaks is through low-level infection in the population. There may also be some fish that carry encysted parasites despite having developed immunity."

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis - WikiVet

"When a fish has had Ich eradicated, it may develop partial resistance to reinfection. Partially treated fish may initially harbour low numbers of unseen trophozoites, often in the gills. This subclinical carrier will cause another outbreak weeks later, most likely when stresses occur or uninfected fish are introduced to the aquarium."

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The scientific name of the parasite is translated as "the fish louse with the many children" reflects its reproductive capacity."

Lost this link reference

"Thus, the association of F. columnare with I. multifiliis appears to be extracellular through interactions with cilia and enmeshment in mucus secreted by theronts and tomonts. Because of the close physical association of Flexibacter columnare with the surface of I. multifiliis, it is possible that the parasite serves as a carrier of bacteria to fish, including individuals that are susceptible to bacterial infection....
...The DNA used to generate these clones was isolated from two different strains of I. multifiliis: G5, passaged in our laboratory since 1995, and G13, recently isolated from a wild fish and minimally passaged in our laboratory. However, DNA isolated from G5 tomonts and G13 theronts contained the same two endosymbionts in the same relative abundance. This suggests that these two endosymbionts are commonly found in I. multifiliis populations and are not lost even after long-term passage in the laboratory.

The physiological relationship between these endosymbionts and I. multifiliis is not understood. As all theronts do not contain detectable endosymbionts, the endosymbionts do not appear to play a critical role in supporting the growth of I. multifiliis, but their presence must also not be particularly detrimental to the growth of I. multifiliis. It is not known whether they play a role in the pathogenesis of I. multifiliis infections or if they affect the immune response of infected fish."

Endosymbiotic Bacteria in the Parasitic Ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

Jeff.

Byron 12-26-2012 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK Fresh Water (Post 1360423)
I hate to disagree with Byron, as he is extremely knowledgeable, but I stand firm in my belief that Ich is NOT in every aquarium. I don't deny however that it is extremely common, especially due to wholesaling. If Ich doesn't have a host to latch onto, it will die or in some cases will become dormant (though this is less common).
Ich isn't sitting in tanks for months or years, waiting to attack at any any sign of weakness.

It just so happens that stressed fish (usually from poor conditions in pet shops/becoming acclimated to a new tank) have compromised immune systems, which allows for Ich to more easily attack. It can't attack though if it's simply not there. Ich cannot live outside of water, so the only migration possible is via infected fish or water containing Ich. Just remember that every time you add new plants or fish, you are allowing another chance for Ich to invade your tank.

It's like mosquitoes. Yes, they are very common and most people are bound to get bitten by them. However, if you lived in a sealed off home it would be impossible for them to ever reach you.

Jeff has provided several references, so I will just address the one issue here that can't be explained any other way. If you have an established aquarium to which nothing new has been added for months and even years, and the temperature suddenly falls (due to heater malfunction, power outage, etc), there will almost certainly be an outbreak of ich within a couple days. The reason is stress weakening the fish. But obviously the ich must be present in the tank all along; there is no other explanation.

Byron.


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