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Rant: Why ask for help if you're not looking for any?

This is a discussion on Rant: Why ask for help if you're not looking for any? within the Off Topic Discussions forums, part of the The Tropical Fish Keeping Community category; --> Originally Posted by Granberry I haven't ever been rude to anyone, and I always offer my advice with a caveat that I am no ...

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Rant: Why ask for help if you're not looking for any?
Old 12-17-2012, 03:57 PM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granberry View Post
I haven't ever been rude to anyone, and I always offer my advice with a caveat that I am no expert.

To be the devils advocate, I will admit it annoys me when someone with no expertise or education jumps in and says something predictable and negative like "your tank is too small; get a bigger tank" or "that fish needs at least X gallons; rehome it because you're being cruel". If someone like Byron says it to me, I will believe it because he has the education and the expertise to back it up, but if someone who has just read it on the internet says it and sponsors it as their own knowledge, especially if they say it rudely or in a condescending way, I do get annoyed. If people wanted a bigger tank, they would get one. Their question is how to let the fish they have work in the tank they have, and telling them to go spend money on a new big tank is avoiding the question.

That being said, I do hear you. It's kind of hard to tell someone their tank is overstocked in a way that is nice enough that they won't tune you out, but when that's the only answer, it's hard to resist telling them. Still, I think people should answer the question that is asked and not in a negative way tell people what they have to do.

EDITED TO ADD: Nobody has ever been rude to me on this board that I remember except someone told me I didn't know anything about lighting, and I thought that wasn't a helpful comment since I was asking a question about lighting, but otherwise, nobody has ever been ugly to me that I remember.
I have to say though, sometimes it really irritates me when someone, for instance, has an Oscar or a Blood Parrot in a bloody ten/twenty gallon tank. There are limits to ignorance and to how much wiggle room there is. I will fully admit that I'm no seasoned fishkeeper, but there are things that are plainly obvious, and I am a full advocate of returning fish that will be unhappy in such small quarters. I do understand what you mean though, there is a bit of wiggle room, things are not set in stone. But I also think it's best, especially for newbies like the majority of us, to err on the side of caution.

I will blame part of that on false advertising though. Stores sell these itty bitty tanks and say you can put goldfish and a whole horde of other things in them, when that really isn't the case.

It also kind of blows my mind though, the things people do to their tanks. It's called Google, it takes about 5 seconds to get a profile on a fish.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:08 PM   #32
 
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Which brings me back to my original post. If you have already asked the LFS, and you believe the LFS, why are you asking here, if you're just going to say "Well, that's not what my LFS said". This is the place to look for other opinions, but only if you're actually open to other opinions.

It is irritating when people keep large fish in small tanks. However there seems to be a large number of people, on all fish forums, that just revel in trolling through the forums looking for dreams to dash. Sometimes it is not as obvious as a giant fish in a small tank, and people need to realize there are grey areas. Read 4 or 5 different fish profiles and they will not all agree on minimum tank size.

Just seems the only time I see certain names if when they are predicting doom and gloom.
Half of them don't keep the fish in question, and seem to have only read a single profile on the fish.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #33
 
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Half of them don't keep the fish in question, and seem to have only read a single profile on the fish.
This is why I just answer questions about fish that I have kept or are keeping. There are too many sources out there that say different things. Experience speaks volume in these cases. Profiles should only be used for guidelines and nothing more IMO. Just cause it says one thing doesn't necessarily mean something else won't work (depending on the issues.). Lets face it humans wrote the profiles and make mistakes in doing soo. We all use this forum as a learning tool (or should) and the best tool is experience at hand. If you don't wanna learn you should post questions plan and simple. Sorry but that's my view on it!
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #34
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This is why I just answer questions about fish that I have kept or are keeping. There are too many sources out there that say different things. Experience speaks volume in these cases. Profiles should only be used for guidelines and nothing more IMO. Just cause it says one thing doesn't necessarily mean something else won't work (depending on the issues.)....
Hear hear!

I was looking at a member's tank recently (online link thingy) and thought that it was a lot of fish... so I quickly looked up the profiles of each, figured out the normal listed maximum size of each school or fish and came up with, according to the rule of thumb, a factor of 2.8 times the thumb recommendation of fish inches.

If it's working, who am I to question the load, me of no fishies. The profiles aren't necessarily wrong, maybe they are doing something different...
Jeff.

Last edited by Tazman; 12-18-2012 at 10:37 PM.. Reason: EDITED FOR LANGUAGE, please refrain using words like that in the forums.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:51 PM   #35
 
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I too have pleasant experiences with my "overstocked" 20 gallon. 20 or so fish in there, but all very small and peaceful and things are going splendid. It is true that everyone has different experiences. That's why we love arguing over who is right.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:25 PM   #36
 
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Jeff, since you just commented on my tank on another thread, I think you were probably talking about mine. I respect the way you didn't jump down my throat...and it makes me comfortable to say that a 29-gallon can easily hold 7 harlequin rasboras and 8 neons because the harlequins stay at the top and the neons stay at the bottom. Likewise, the loaches stay at the bottom, and the 8 diamond tetras are mid level swimmers. The 1 dwarf gourami stayed at the top and didn't bother anyone. But most importantly, nobody was dying! :) I do have a test kit, and at that time I was always fidgeting with my tank, and I tested it a lot. I was also always fidgeting around with aqadvisor.com and it gave me blessings for the tank. I don't know the owner of aqadvisor, but I have heard knowledgeable people recommend it, which is why I trust it.

I think the 2.8 x the rule of thumb you were referencing referred to inch per gallon, and I've been told that's not accurate, that you have to measure bioloads of the fish, etc. Either way, I wish people would follow your example and state their opinion without being all "in someone's face"....it would be much easier to learn from someone like that than someone who was rude.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:38 PM   #37
 
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Like Olympia I have an "overstocked" 20, though again, like Granberry, aquadvisor gives it a thumbs up. The fish in there are all peaceful and have plenty of swimming room.

4 x Guppies
3 x Julii Corys
5 x Platies
7 x Neon Tetras
8 x Harlequin Rasboras
2 x Nerita Snail (Tiger Pattern)

35-30% water changes, usually weekly, and this tank always has great water conditions.

I need a couple more cories. Other than that, I love this tank. We actual have 2 guppy fry that survived to maturity by hiding in the cracks in the driftwood. So really, there are 6 guppies now.

(My Rasboras are small and may end up in another tank one day, depending on how big they get)
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:50 PM   #38
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Jeff, since you just commented on my tank on another thread, I think you were probably talking about mine. ....
Guilty as charged. I did wonder if you would notice and comment.... glad you didn't think I was dissing your setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granberry View Post
I think the 2.8 x the rule of thumb you were referencing referred to inch per gallon, and I've been told that's not accurate, that you have to measure bioloads of the fish, etc....
Yes. I understand that part of it as well. Messy fish count as larger loads. Based on your old listing, as you pointed out, your adult fish would total 83 fish inches in a 29 gallon tank. I'm sure that your fish were nowhere near that large yet... another factor.

If nothing else it gives someone a starting point. I am calculating based on adult sizes and I probably won't cross it unless I find everything works out really well and my aquarium seems to be capable of handling a little more down the road. I figure a little bit of underestimating is not a bad thing at this stage.

I ran a few fish through the Aquadvisor to estimate water parameters but found I was just better getting more acquainted with the fish information instead. It's fine to know where to look (good for double checking) but it is better to just know in the first place. Steeper learning curve but for me I find it more satisfying in the end.

Oops! Sorry, I went back ON TOPIC! My bad.

Jeff.

Last edited by JDM; 12-17-2012 at 09:56 PM.. Reason: added the Aquadvisor comment
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:31 PM   #39
 
When it comes to stocking there are tons of factors. In the end it is part science and part art. Never in this hobby will everyone agree on how to stock a tank as there are multiple ways to stock the same tank. Nor can any simple rules or aquarium stocking calculators tell you the whole truth.

aqadvisor gives most my tanks major warnings and what not. My 20 gallon is also over 20 fish. I disagree to any 'overstocked' tank running well and happily, if it is the simple answer is its not over stocked.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #40
 
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I do agree there are gray areas, when I was researching Pearl Gouramis it simply blew my mind how many different opinions there were on keeping them. I ended up just trying it out to see if it would work, and it has, with 3 PGs in my 35 gallon, although I read a few people advocate nothing less than a 40 gallon for a single one. Conversely, I saw people say a 15 gallon is more than enough for one. I'm not disagreeing on grey areas, I think we all know that the profiles are guidelines with the fishies interests at heart. There will always be differing opinions, and in the end it just comes down to what works in an individual tank.

It's not these grey areas that bother me, it's the obvious ones that make me want to pound my head in. I'm no master fish keeper and haven't kept a massive variety of species, so I usually refrain from commenting on threads about a certain species.

Maybe it's my OCD, but before I even bought my tank I spent hours every day researching and compiling data, and even after beginning my tank I still spend a good hour or two researching fish, just out of curiosity. So sometimes I can try and help people who have fish I don't have personal experience with, by repeating what I've seen elsewhere if it's been said multiple times by different references. But always with the disclaimer "I haven't kept this fish personally, and I'm sure others know more than I do..."
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