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This is a discussion on ET & More within the Off Topic Discussions forums, part of the The Tropical Fish Keeping Community category; --> ET Portion (per the recent thread) This gets into religion unfortunately (the church which I attend came out of the Restoration and is therefore ...

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Old 03-30-2007, 05:33 PM   #1
 
ET & More

ET Portion (per the recent thread)
This gets into religion unfortunately (the church which I attend came out of the Restoration and is therefore very conservative) but I still cannot believe that out of the billions of stars in the universe (and therefore trillions of planets) that intelligent life does not exist elsewhere.

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Has anyone ever thought of the consequences that the laws of nature as we know them (ie. explained by physics) are temporally and spatially dependent. If this theorem is correct then our concept of the universe is incorrect.

TR
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:54 PM   #2
 
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i belive in life elsewere in the universe i dont belive they come to earth to kidnap rednecks for sex experiments
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:59 PM   #3
 
Bump

Some one else must have some thoughts with respect to cosmology or cosmogony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmogony

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Old 04-05-2007, 08:05 PM   #4
 
i believe there has to be life out there somewhere. there is no way we are the only life. although i do not believe it to be as we have made it, aliens with big eyes and such. sounds like an imagination at work.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:23 AM   #5
 
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i have thoguht about this. there are certain theorems that, like you said, prove our universe to be incorrect.

something that i always found difficult to get my head round is entropy. in my thermodynamics classes we always just think of entropy in a heat transfer type of way, whihc is maybe why i find it difficult to get my head round as im so used to thinking about it this way, however more generally its just giving a direction to time which is difficult to me. when you drop a plate, it doesnt just gather itself up again and put itself back onto the table for example. but it is scientifically sound for the plate to be able to do this. cant get my head round that one no matter how hard i try.

or dark matter/black holes etc? places of infinite density basically. in theory it is correct, but i just cant understand how it can be as it defies other laws which are also scientifically correct.

i think its just a theory vs practice thing. no matter how sound the theory is, there are always holes in it - external factors that havent been taken into account which alter the results. not that i claim to understand or know what these holes in it are, lol, i just think that must be the cause of it.

i take it thats the kinda stuff youre talking about jones?

ive probably explained that badly, so sorry for confusing folk.
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:21 PM   #6
 
Julie:
The most important point which I can make is that understanding the laws of nature (ie. physics) is not difficult. The beauty of physics is it’s simplicity. Folks perceive it “to be hard” and therefore “make it hard”.

I have thoguht about this. there are certain theorems that, like you said, prove our universe to be incorrect.
The theorem which I stated is one which Ron Jones conceived and to my knowledge has never been published.
Can you believe the consequences if the theorem were true.
Virtually all funding for a substantial portion astrophysics would cease.

In the following paragraphs I set forth “the way I think about” the concepts which you reference. This “way of thinking” was distilled from various physics’ explanations for simplicity in order that I could understand the concepts.

something that i always found difficult to get my head round is entropy.
Just think of entropy as chaos.
If 1000 hydrogen atoms were placed together in a dense spherical geometry in a massless black sphere at time zero and a significant time later the atoms were observed they would be randomly distributed in the sphere (ie. the system had decayed from order (the dense spherical geometry) to chaos (the random distribution).
This is an explanation of the equation which you learned in thermodynamics (the second law):
dS/dT>=0 where S is entropy and T is time.

in my thermodynamics classes we always just think of entropy in a heat transfer type of way, whihc is maybe why i find it difficult to get my head round as im so used to thinking about it this way,
Yes I have read one “Engineering” thermodynamics book and it was as useless as mammary glands on a male hog with respect to understanding the basic precepts of the description of the portion of nature which we term thermodynamics.

In your next paragraph you are “barking at the bottom of a tree a significant distance from the one the coon climbed”.
I believe what you may be referring to is Brownian motion.
If hold a hammer 1 meter above the floor and release it there is some probability that it will hit the ceiling instead of the floor. Obviously this probability is very small and approaches zero.


however more generally its just giving a direction to time which is difficult to me. when you drop a plate, it doesnt just gather itself up again and put itself back onto the table for example. but it is scientifically sound for the plate to be able to do this. cant get my head round that one no matter how hard i try.
If a system is always decaying to a state of chaos how can we exist?
We are obviously well organized systems.
Easy!!! With the input of energy.
In the example of entropy above if we allowed the hydrogen atoms to decay to chaos and subsequently induced a tremendous positive charge on the sphere (ie. the input of energy) the hydrogen atoms would subsequently be observed to once again be grouped together.
Wahla: order from chaos.
The missing link here is that probably in your thermodynamics course no one nor the literature stated that you were studying equilibrium thermodynamics.
In nonequilibrium thermodynamics (ie. energy input to a system) order becomes possible.


Yes. Your following paragraph is an extrapolation of my reference.

or dark matter/black holes etc? places of infinite density basically. in theory it is correct, but i just cant understand how it can be as it defies other laws which are also scientifically correct.
I do not know of any other of our laws of nature which are defied.
The “keys to the kingdom” here is the concept that energy and matter are just different states of mass.
This is analogous to ice and steam being different states of water.
If energy has mass then it is subject to gravitational effects.
(This concept was proved while Einstein was alive by the observation of star light being “warped” by the gravitation effects of the Sun.)
Hence a large enough mass can exist such that it’s gravitational effect of will preclude light escaping (energy being emitted) = a black hole.

i think its just a theory vs practice thing. no matter how sound the theory is, there are always holes in it - external factors that havent been taken into account which alter the results. not that i claim to understand or know what these holes in it are, lol, i just think that must be the cause of it.
Not really!
Black holes have been observed in multiple star systems.
Obviously not by direct observation (as no light or other energy is emitted) but by observation of the motion of stars in the system which are affected by the gravitational effects of the black hole.

i take it thats the kinda stuff youre talking about jones?
Yes!
Another example would be the warping of 3 dimensional space by a black hole which might imply, that although the speed of energy in a vacuum is the limiting speed in the universe, that travel across the universe might be possible in very brief time periods by “jumping a short distance” from one location to another instead of “traveling” between the locations.
If ET’s have been able to understand this warping and have the technology to produce massive quantities of energy (ie. by some process such as controlled thermonuclear fusion) then we may have observed their presence.

Julie and other folks.
I hope I did not bore yall with this post as I thought some might be interested in the various items which I have set forth.

TR
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:20 PM   #7
 
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i wish my lecturers would look at what i write with such detail and give as much thoguht and feedback to it! :o

im not really sure if youre trying to be helpful or humouring me or laughing at my foolishness tbh, either way...

the reason i chose an engineering degree over a science degree is that i find a thing much more interesting, and moreover, much more easy to understand if i can actually carry it out and get results from it rather than analysing and trying to understand theory. it allows me to stay away from books as much as possible and actually do stuff which for me is just a better way to learn. theory is great but after a while, when you still have no end product it just all gets a bit old for me. and so im afraid from the few engineering, or "engineering" books that you mentioned, im not able to go into much more depth that i already have, and wont pretend to be able to do so.

i appreciate your explanations though - did make it a bit clearer.

as far as your referring to my thread a week or 2 back about believeing in extra terrestrials, it was more of a "blind faith" idea that i was getting at rather than sound scientific evidence. hence the term believing. if there was proof either way there would be nothing to believe anymore, only something to know for certain which really defeats the entire purpose :D so sorry if i mislead you into thinking i knew much mroe about astrophysics than i do, which im afraid like i said isnt a lot
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