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post #11 of 25 Old 01-29-2017, 05:31 PM
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This experience really speaks to me. I was seriously considering ordering Angel fish online. I'm sure they probably were fine fish. At checkout when the shipping was added in and I realized what the cost of each Angel was I backed out and decided to ponder this a little. I'm not all that experienced with Angels at this time although I have been reading everything I can on the subject. I decided to try first lower priced Angels from local big box. Started with one and added a total of five more all for a quarantine tank. Purchased within two weeks. At this point I have four of them. Two had died within ten days. The remaining four I have now had three plus weeks and seem to be doing fine. Maybe with more experience I will think down the road about those lovely Angels I was a click away from purchasing, but losing two of them would be painful.......telling my wife? Priceless.
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post #12 of 25 Old 01-30-2017, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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This experience really speaks to me. I was seriously considering ordering Angel fish online. I'm sure they probably were fine fish. At checkout when the shipping was added in and I realized what the cost of each Angel was I backed out and decided to ponder this a little.
Yeah, the cost of overnight shipping is an OUCH! If I could've found healthy Angels of the sort I wanted locally I'd have gone that route but no one in my vicinity has them, not even the colors.

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I'm not all that experienced with Angels at this time although I have been reading everything I can on the subject. I decided to try first lower priced Angels from local big box. Started with one and added a total of five more all for a quarantine tank. Purchased within two weeks. At this point I have four of them. Two had died within ten days. The remaining four I have now had three plus weeks and seem to be doing fine.
I purchased two telephone consulting sessions with the breeder before I actually purchased the fish. That was very helpful (despite losing the fish--those losses were entirely unanticipated despite my best efforts.) I guess I'm evidence that learning to keep Angelfish the hard way is a bit expensive.

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Maybe with more experience I will think down the road about those lovely Angels I was a click away from purchasing, but losing two of them would be painful.......telling my wife? Priceless.
I actually lost four--two of the initial four, and two that paired and started trying to kill the remaining Koi and the newer Albinos. Lesson: TAKE YOUR TANK WATER TO BE TESTED BY A PROFESSIONAL! Nothing to do done about the paired up killers I suppose.

If I may ask, where were you looking at purchasing fish online? I've had excellent results from one breeder in particular (in terms of the fish arriving very healthy, etc.) I don't know the board policy on linking to breeders, etc. but if you're interested I can PM you the breeder who worked with me.

My husband is starting to groan that those fish are as expensive as my horse was. When the paired two died from the fast move he was speechless for a while, then needed some alone time.

Hey, I TOLD him!
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post #13 of 25 Old 01-30-2017, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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PS Radar--good luck with the remaining five! Post photos if you like.
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post #14 of 25 Old 01-31-2017, 04:38 PM
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Hi Angelfishlover, I have had many years breeding sth american cichlids, (to pay for my aquarium habit) never really got into angels, but always used cheap small angels to put tanks through cycles, I figured they were cichlids, they were cheap and very easy to return to the distributor after the cycle had completed due to their popularity. Breeding to make money, takes money. Turning 900 viable fry into sufficient salable young to make the effort worth while requires a great deal of tank space in a new tank and a large amount of work. I kept one pair of common angels from a tank cycle to breed once, and the sight of two majestic cichlid parents regally watching over their progeny, is one of the most satisfying experiences in the aquarium hobby. more so for the tranquil slow-moving angels. If they do breed, you'll probably get some young grow to viable selling size without removal from the main tank, as angels make very attentive and protective parents. But as has already been mentioned, angels aren't particularly big fans of salads, so you can easily propagate plants.
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post #15 of 25 Old 01-31-2017, 04:49 PM
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Thanks, Warhawk! Since you have a whole heaping lot more experience than I, would you consider answering my question regarding seeding using the existing tank over at New tank items in old tank for a month to seed? ?

I wish my husband were as understanding as you. He's a bit put out with me for losing $200 worth of fish.
Sorry I have been busy and not had a chance to read the forums. I will take a look at that thread tonight. Might already be answered but might have info to add.

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Do you think driftwood and a 4" sponge filter kept in the existing tank for 30 days is enough to support the move of the Koi to a separate 20g tank? Or would you cycle the new tank using one of the non-fish methods and supplement the bacterial filtration with the sponge and wood?
The sponge filter running in the existing tank for 30 days should have some bacterial and when you move it over it should grow fast. I have read that bacteria will double in size in about 30 hours if it has the food. So that means in a few days it will be large enough to handle the 20g no problem. That is assuming that info is correct, I like to go on the caution side and do water changes every day for 4-5 days to be safe.


I breed a few different fish and I know I'm not making any profit, I did it for fun and to keep my tanks full.


You can follow Old Fort Exotics on You Tube and on my Fish room thread.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5l...KdIa-pb3K2zb7A
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/d...h-room-517930/

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post #16 of 25 Old 01-31-2017, 06:02 PM
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PS Radar--good luck with the remaining five! Post photos if you like.
My photography skills and computer skills........perfect match 0.
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post #17 of 25 Old 02-01-2017, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by grumbleguts View Post
Hi Angelfishlover, I have had many years breeding sth american cichlids, (to pay for my aquarium habit) never really got into angels, but always used cheap small angels to put tanks through cycles, I figured they were cichlids, they were cheap and very easy to return to the distributor after the cycle had completed due to their popularity. Breeding to make money, takes money. Turning 900 viable fry into sufficient salable young to make the effort worth while requires a great deal of tank space in a new tank and a large amount of work.
Hi grumbleguts!

When I started out I had no intention of breeding at all. Unbeknownst to me, the fish didn't much care whether I intended to or not! The two Koi are displaying pairing behavior (eg lip-locking) though they're too young to breed yet (I think.) After watching a new pair of pearlscale Koi pair up very fast, start cleaning an egg spot and attempting to kill the other four fish in the tank, I figured I better get a tank ready for the original young Koi before they do the same thing and try to kill my albinos (admittedly my favorite.)

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I kept one pair of common angels from a tank cycle to breed once, and the sight of two majestic cichlid parents regally watching over their progeny, is one of the most satisfying experiences in the aquarium hobby. more so for the tranquil slow-moving angels.
I've seen video of it and it is mesmerizing!

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If they do breed, you'll probably get some young grow to viable selling size without removal from the main tank, as angels make very attentive and protective parents. But as has already been mentioned, angels aren't particularly big fans of salads, so you can easily propagate plants.
I've read that one doesn't have to remove the eggs to get juveniles and that's likely the way I will handle it. I don't have the tank space for more than 6 (the original 40g and the new 20g) so the juveniles have to go if and/or when they arrive.

I showed the local aquarium shop photos of my fish and the owner offered to purchase any juveniles that pop up so it might make sense to go a bit deeper and try the whole new-fry-tank routine. At $5-9 each and 450 juveniles (assuming 900 eggs with half making it to juveniles) and a purchaser already asking about it, that might make my husband less irritated. I haven't really decided on that though. I started out wanting 4-6 Angelfish to grow into adults and live in my tank for 8-10 years. Breeding had nothing to do with it.

Have you ever had albinos? I intended to plant my 40g tank but the smallish full spectrum bulb I have now seems to be causing the albinos some problems. For instance, the albinos have problems seeing food at the surface. I have to hand-feed one of them in a darker corner. Otherwise they simply gulp water and air until they find some food. I'm going to change the bulb to a standard fluorescent and see if their behavior changes. I'd also like to know if the high spectrum will cause them problems in the future, eg cancers, as occurs in mammals with albinism. The breeder hasn't had this variety for very long as can't answer my questions (he doesn't have tank lights, he uses straight florescent ceiling lights.) If you've had experience with albinism in fish please let me know what you think!

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Originally Posted by Warhawk View Post
Sorry I have been busy and not had a chance to read the forums. I will take a look at that thread tonight. Might already be answered but might have info to add.
Hi Warhawk!

I'm open to all ideas and suggestions. Thanks!

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The sponge filter running in the existing tank for 30 days should have some bacterial and when you move it over it should grow fast. I have read that bacteria will double in size in about 30 hours if it has the food. So that means in a few days it will be large enough to handle the 20g no problem. That is assuming that info is correct, I like to go on the caution side and do water changes every day for 4-5 days to be safe.
I'm repeating myself but want to make sure I'm clear. When a new pair of pearlscale Koi paired up very fast, started cleaning a piece of vertical driftwood and made a real effort to kill the other four fish in the tank, I put up a temporary 10g tank, filled it with half tank water, half treated tap water, a new sponge filter, driftwood and a heater. I thought I could move the fish straight from the existing tank to the temporary tank but both died within 48 hours from unknown causes.

After that unpleasant experience I want to give the remaining Koi the best chance possible when making the move. I guess I've become a bit paranoid. If traditional cycling is safer for the fish, I'm all for doing it (though it must be a fishless cycle.)

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I breed a few different fish and I know I'm not making any profit, I did it for fun and to keep my tanks full.
If I can tell my husband that I made any money at all he'll be less irritated. When he got me the tank he didn't know what he was getting himself into.

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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
My photography skills and computer skills........perfect match 0.
Hi Radar! I wish the fish were as easy as computers and photography. (sigh) I wouldn't have had a quarter of the problems I've had with the fish. So you're one up on me!

Thanks to all three of you, and hope you have a great day!
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post #18 of 25 Old 02-01-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AngelfishLover View Post

Hi Warhawk!

I'm open to all ideas and suggestions. Thanks!

I'm repeating myself but want to make sure I'm clear. When a new pair of pearlscale Koi paired up very fast, started cleaning a piece of vertical driftwood and made a real effort to kill the other four fish in the tank, I put up a temporary 10g tank, filled it with half tank water, half treated tap water, a new sponge filter, driftwood and a heater. I thought I could move the fish straight from the existing tank to the temporary tank but both died within 48 hours from unknown causes.

After that unpleasant experience I want to give the remaining Koi the best chance possible when making the move. I guess I've become a bit paranoid. If traditional cycling is safer for the fish, I'm all for doing it (though it must be a fishless cycle.)


If I can tell my husband that I made any money at all he'll be less irritated. When he got me the tank he didn't know what he was getting himself into.


I have read that "water" or decor from a cycled tank is enough to cycle a new tank but I have never had it work. I have read a lot of people moving the gravel but again not seen it work, but I think this would work. What I do is run extra filters on some of my tanks, I have a few tanks but I like to keep 3-4 sponge filters going as back up. We all know we should have a fully cycled tank but I have been to the local fish store and bought fish I wasn't ready for. So when I get home I setup a tank quickly, let it sit for about an hour and move a filter over. This will bring the cycle over and no risk to the fish(or at least very little).

I suggest everyone do the same thing just have a extra filter running on the tank, no down sides to this but if you ever need it it is worth it's weight in gold.

I don't see anything you did wrong and I'm sure you did the best you could with what was on hand. The fish cycle can be hard to work out and I have never done a fish less cycle. I cycled my first tank with fish and I have used the above method to seed my new filters.



Breeding angels you could be able to make some money but it depends on how much work you want to do. I would talk to the local fish store and if they will buy your fry I would take them up on the deal. You will need a few more tanks to make it work, I keep my angel fry with the parents until they are larger then 1/2". Most parents will cull the weak or deformed fry, then move them over to a larger tank (29g works good) and do lots of feeding and water changes(3 or 4 per week), once they get about 2" you can sell them to the local store. This will take 4-5 months so it's not a fast process and you should have 15-30 nice angels(will very) I don't sell anything with bent fins or that doesn't swim well. I look at them and if I wouldn't buy it I don't sell it.

That is a quick run through the process and not trying to discourage you just want to make sure anyone wanting to breed fish understands it's more work them people think. I do breed some fish but any money I make goes toward fish food or fish.


You can follow Old Fort Exotics on You Tube and on my Fish room thread.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5l...KdIa-pb3K2zb7A
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/d...h-room-517930/

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post #19 of 25 Old 02-01-2017, 11:27 AM
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There is next to zero bacteria in the water, so transferring water from an established tank to a new one will not get the job done. Must use things with surface area, such as decor, gravel, filter media. Regarding gravel - best use is in a media bag, in the filter.

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta
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post #20 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Warhawk View Post
I have read that "water" or decor from a cycled tank is enough to cycle a new tank but I have never had it work. I have read a lot of people moving the gravel but again not seen it work, but I think this would work.
Hi Warhawk!

I've read that too. I also read on the bottle of "seed" that fish could be introduced to the new tank 24 hours after the start of treatment. That was an expensive mistake (two pearlscale veiled Koi Angelfish dead within 48 hours.) I certainly don't want to do that again! That's why I want to set up this new tank for the pairing Koi and move them before they become homicidal. No more emergency moves!

Quote:
What I do is run extra filters on some of my tanks, I have a few tanks but I like to keep 3-4 sponge filters going as back up. We all know we should have a fully cycled tank but I have been to the local fish store and bought fish I wasn't ready for. So when I get home I setup a tank quickly, let it sit for about an hour and move a filter over. This will bring the cycle over and no risk to the fish(or at least very little).
I really need to get one or two spare sponge filters into my cycled tank. That means I need to get a new air pump to put 1 liter/min through each filter but that's okay. I can keep this one for backup, or even for the new 20g and put the 20g pump into the emergency kit.

Dumb question: since my bio-load is fairly low (four silver-dollar sized Angels, not counting fins, in a 40g tank) would the tank contain enough bacteria to culture multiple sponges?

Quote:
I suggest everyone do the same thing just have a extra filter running on the tank, no down sides to this but if you ever need it it is worth it's weight in gold.
I learned that lesson the hard way.

Quote:
I don't see anything you did wrong and I'm sure you did the best you could with what was on hand. The fish cycle can be hard to work out and I have never done a fish less cycle. I cycled my first tank with fish and I have used the above method to seed my new filters.
Well, if it works for you it ought to work for me. If the pearlscale Koi situation hadn't been a have-to-deal-with-it-immediately situation, I think they would've survived the move. I just can't kill my remaining Koi and am paranoid as all get-out.

Quote:
Breeding angels you could be able to make some money but it depends on how much work you want to do. I would talk to the local fish store and if they will buy your fry I would take them up on the deal.
I was in the LFS and they asked me if I planned to breed. When I said I wasn't planning to, the owner said that if any fry pop up he'd buy them from me. That's what got me thinking about allowing eggs to remain in the tank rather than scraping them off whatever.

Quote:
You will need a few more tanks to make it work, I keep my angel fry with the parents until they are larger then 1/2". Most parents will cull the weak or deformed fry, then move them over to a larger tank (29g works good) and do lots of feeding and water changes(3 or 4 per week), once they get about 2" you can sell them to the local store.
Is the parental culling the reason people say that Angels eat their fry? I've seen conflicting information on that: Angels are attentive, protective parents but on the other hand, they eat their young.

When you say 2" are you measuring from dorsal to anal/ventral fins, or 2" body circumference without the fins?

Quote:
This will take 4-5 months so it's not a fast process and you should have 15-30 nice angels(will very) I don't sell anything with bent fins or that doesn't swim well. I look at them and if I wouldn't buy it I don't sell it.
If I go through with it, that would be my approach.

The proven breeding pairs sold by the breeder lay 800-900 eggs at a time. How many do yours lay? It seems that more would survive than 15-30 out of 800 eggs. Is 1.8% to 3.8% egg to adult ratio the norm?

Quote:
That is a quick run through the process and not trying to discourage you just want to make sure anyone wanting to breed fish understands it's more work them people think. I do breed some fish but any money I make goes toward fish food or fish.
Oh no, I appreciate the information. As I said, I had no desire to breed when I started this adventure. It's come up only because of the pearlscale koi (now dead) that were in the early stages of breeding, and the pairing behavior of my remaining koi. Added to the LFS' desire to purchase offspring of my fish, it seems like it might be worth an attempt. The worst that can happen is none of the eggs make it to juveniles, right?

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Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
There is next to zero bacteria in the water, so transferring water from an established tank to a new one will not get the job done. Must use things with surface area, such as decor, gravel, filter media. Regarding gravel - best use is in a media bag, in the filter.
Hi jaysee!

Found that out the hard way. I thought it would be okay for two or three days, just long enough to get a larger tank here and set up as well as I could. So much for that!

Thanks to both and hope you're having a good day!
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