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tds no health risk or the water looks clear and taste good!

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tds no health risk or the water looks clear and taste good!
Old 02-06-2013, 04:14 PM   #11
pop
 
Hello admin:

I liked the metaphor ..” I may not know exactly what's going on if I walk into a room and find the air has a green tint and a foul smell, but you can bet I wouldn't leave my kids in it. “

my answer would be a little different as to I would say to my kid go on in an have fun and don’t ask for money. You see his girl friend has blue hair and they would be at home.


This is another good point ‘Even if it were the case that TDS measured "only the aesthetic aspects of water", could you not use the degradation of the aesthetic aspects of the water as an indication that it's suitability for live aquaria was degrading as well?”
That’s just what I do ……. Change the water when the aesthetic aspects of the water are degraded.

I must also admit to debased behavior in regard to remarks about moderators, you are right I gave them greater credit and knowledge than I should have not implying anything about their experience.

I have read this article and the cited references Total Solids (TSS and TDS) in the Freshwater Aquarium. I still did not see any real verified facts nor was there any clear cause and effect relationships. There are observations and speculations about specific events without viable conclusions that prove high levels of tds caused the event due to the event might have been caused by the sudden change of concentrations of tds. Some of the specific events could be accounted for by sudden changes in temp, ph or the nitrogen cycle.

Show me the science and verifiable fact that establishes cause and effect relationship that TDS causes the specified event. The problem as I see it is something else than TDS could cause the same effect and that has to be eliminated before cause and effect relationship maybe established.

Is ……. There an evil that is lurking out there somewhere that can only be seen by the shadow……

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Old 02-06-2013, 04:56 PM   #12
 
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Quote:
I have read this article and the cited references Total Solids (TSS and TDS) in the Freshwater Aquarium. I still did not see any real verified facts nor was there any clear cause and effect relationships. There are observations and speculations about specific events without viable conclusions that prove high levels of tds caused the event due to the event might have been caused by the sudden change of concentrations of tds. Some of the specific events could be accounted for by sudden changes in temp, ph or the nitrogen cycle.
The whole article was verified scientific fact. If you choose not to believe it, so be it. But I wish you would go and argue this with the biologists and not me. They would be better qualified. I just accept their concensus since they know more about this than I do--or you for that matter. You probably don't listen to your doctor either. I tend to accept that these people have the knowledge and I would be foolish to disregard it.

Quote:
Show me the science and verifiable fact that establishes cause and effect relationship that TDS causes the specified event. The problem as I see it is something else than TDS could cause the same effect and that has to be eliminated before cause and effect relationship maybe established.
It is true that many factors can affect the fish's physiology and health. TDS is just one, and it does cause what I stated in the article. That is scientific fact, period.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:39 AM   #13
 
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Grumpy Cat has joined the thread :) Too funny!
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:32 AM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop View Post
Hello admin:

I liked the metaphor ..” I may not know exactly what's going on if I walk into a room and find the air has a green tint and a foul smell, but you can bet I wouldn't leave my kids in it. “

my answer would be a little different as to I would say to my kid go on in an have fun and don’t ask for money. You see his girl friend has blue hair and they would be at home.

This is another good point ‘Even if it were the case that TDS measured "only the aesthetic aspects of water", could you not use the degradation of the aesthetic aspects of the water as an indication that it's suitability for live aquaria was degrading as well?”
That’s just what I do ……. Change the water when the aesthetic aspects of the water are degraded.

I must also admit to debased behavior in regard to remarks about moderators, you are right I gave them greater credit and knowledge than I should have not implying anything about their experience.

I have read this article and the cited references Total Solids (TSS and TDS) in the Freshwater Aquarium. I still did not see any real verified facts nor was there any clear cause and effect relationships. There are observations and speculations about specific events without viable conclusions that prove high levels of tds caused the event due to the event might have been caused by the sudden change of concentrations of tds. Some of the specific events could be accounted for by sudden changes in temp, ph or the nitrogen cycle.

Show me the science and verifiable fact that establishes cause and effect relationship that TDS causes the specified event. The problem as I see it is something else than TDS could cause the same effect and that has to be eliminated before cause and effect relationship maybe established.

Is ……. There an evil that is lurking out there somewhere that can only be seen by the shadow……

pop

Nope,,the burden is on you to prove YOUR point,and that the Science is flawed, which you have thus far,, failed miserably to do.
In a properly maintained,stable,cycled aquarium, there is not likely to be any sudden changes to the system save the self inflicted.
Is well known among expierienced hobbyist's,scientist's, that 80 to 90% of all fish health problem's we see in the aquarium, can be directly tied to water quality or a lack thereof.
Stand's to reason for those reasonable, that weekly water changes are best,and fastest way to ensure that organic input in glass box of water does not rise to level's that may increase stress related Illness by weakening immune system.
Few people I know, are interested in how much of excess waste allowed to collect in closed system does it take, before aquatic life begin's to show the effect's.
Certainly not how much it takes to kill the fish outright.
Glass box of water with daily input, fish food's,fish waste, and no export mechanisim,will eventually have negative effect on the life therein.
No one you know ,or I know, ever lost fishes by performing water changes to keep metabolites,conductivity,TDS,NitrAtes,at negligible levels.
Plenty of folk's have killed fish by not doing so.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:35 AM   #15
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pop's responce tds

Hello 1077 and the TDS gang;

I don’t believe I said that the science was/is flawed in the tds article. What I said is that there is a significant lack of scientific facts presented and the manner the facts are presented leave more questions than provided answers. I believe you stated that ‘biologist …. . They would be better qualified. I just accept their consensus since they know more about this than I do--or you’ I am not sure that all scientist and their reports are valuable or truthful.
Since you and Bryon place such faith in published facts then consider:

Jan Henrik Schön , a researcher at Bell Laboratories in New Jersey, had five papers published in Nature and seven in the journal Science between 1998 and 2001, dealing with advanced aspects of electronics. The discoveries were abstruse, but he was seen by many of his peers as a rising star. In 2002, a committee found that he had made up his results on at least 16 occasions, resulting in the public embarrassment of his colleagues, his employer, and the editorial staffs of both the journals that accepted his results. Schön, who by then was still only 32, said: “I have to admit that I made various mistakes in my scientific work, which I deeply regret.” Nature also reported him as adding in a statement, “I truly believe that the reported scientific effects are real, exciting and worth working for.” He would say no more.
Shinichi Fujimura was one of Japan’s leading archaeologists – despite being self-taught. In 1981 he made his first discovery of stoneware that dated back 40,000 years. It was the oldest stoneware ever found in Japan and this discovery launched his career. During the following years he discovered older and older artifacts that pushed the limits of Japan’s known pre-history.
On October, 2000, Fujimara discovered a cluster of stone pieces that they believed to have been made by primitive people; they also found several holes that they claimed were to hold supports for primitive dwellings. The find was believed to be over 600,000 years old – making the oldest signs of human habitation in the world. This lead to international coverage.
Then, on November 5, the Mainichi Shimbun newspaper published three photos on the front page, which showed Fujimara digging holes at the site and burying the artifacts that he later dug up. At a press conference that day he admitted that he had planted the stones and had faked most of his discoveries. With his head bowed in shame, he said: “I was tempted by the Devil.”
The Sokal affair was a hoax by Alan Sokal (a physicist) perpetrated on the postmodern cultural studies journal Social Text (published by Duke University). In 1996, he submitted a paper of nonsense camouflaged in jargon to see if the journal would “publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors’ ideological preconceptions.”

The paper, “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity”, was published in “Science Wars” that year. On the day of publication, Sokal announced (in a different paper,) that the article was a hoax. He said that Social Text was “a pastiche of left-wing cant, fawning references, grandiose quotations, and outright nonsense”. Much heated debate followed, especially regarding academic ethics.
Another recent example of this same situation is the 2005 Rooter Paper; this was a paper randomly generated by a computer which was submitted – and consequently approved as legitimate – to a scientific conference.
Archaeoraptor in 1999 National Geographic described this creature as the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds.Yeah, not so much. Turns out this "fossil" found in China was actually a forgery constructed from rearranged pieces of real fossils from different species.
The Nacirema were supposedly a tribe of people living in North America, as described by Horace Miner in his anthropological paper. The tribe Miner described had many odd rituals including "scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument" and another ritual that "consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures." It was actually a satire of everyday American life. "Nacirema" is "American" spelled backward and the amazing rituals were brushing one’s teeth and shaving.
So is it wise to place all my faith in scientist and published facts or is it better to access data and determine if the results is valid. I must question everything it is my nature some folks I guess prefer to trust anything that is published in journals and on the net.

On to Bryon’s article I am not qualified nor do I wish to critique your article but because I RESPECT YOUR KNOWLEDGE I will point out one instance of inconsistency.
TDS, not the ph, that shocks them [fish]. The effects of shock can be offset by slowing mixing the waters……….. TDS is unique to each aquarium. BY MIXING WATERS TO PREVENT TDS SHOCK WILL ALSO ALTER THE PH OF THE TWO WATERS since you connected ph to tds by way of general hardness. {providing alternative explanation for the lack of effect of ph shock instead of tds shock caused by osmotic pressure}.
You said “Never use bottled drinking water; this likely has more TDS than most tap water.” WHY????
Would you be surprised the definition of TDS your article provides is the same word for word definition as given by the EPA secondary water standards as aesthetic aspects. You don’t address why the same definition can provide two different interpretations of what exactly are TDS. Interesting speculation you provided about TDS.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:18 AM   #16
 
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I am reminded of the Locust's,cricket's I hear on warm summer evening's spent fishing along the riverbank.Although they have nothing of discernible importance to say,, they nonetheless continue with their chatter.
I suspect they enjoy hearing the sound they make.
I will stand by the knowledge I have gained from my expierience of nearly 40 yrs in this hobby, and hope that other's may take from it that which may prove of use.
For those who wish to find their own way,,, I bid them good luck.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #17
 
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TDS, not the ph, that shocks them [fish]. The effects of shock can be offset by slowing mixing the waters……….. TDS is unique to each aquarium. BY MIXING WATERS TO PREVENT TDS SHOCK WILL ALSO ALTER THE PH OF THE TWO WATERS since you connected ph to tds by way of general hardness. {providing alternative explanation for the lack of effect of ph shock instead of tds shock caused by osmotic pressure}.
What is your point? All sources will recommend mixing the waters to avoid shock; both TDS and pH will be adjusted by this. My point, or rather the point of the biologist providing this fact, is that the TDS is actually the more critical of the two. Just as GH is actually of more significance to soft water fish than pH when making these adjustments.


Quote:
You said “Never use bottled drinking water; this likely has more TDS than most tap water.” WHY????
Bottled drinking water is not usually "pure" water such as RO. It contains minerals, depending where it came from. So it is adding these, which are part of TDS. Thus, it is no better than the tap.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:24 PM   #18
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When mixing waters from two separate aquariums not only prevents possible TDS shock it also removes the probability of ph shock. This is not proof that ph shock doesn’t exist or is always a myth in all possible circumstances.

It appears that in TDS rich environments the buffering capacity of hard water chemistry creates a very stable state for ph and removes the potential for drastic shifts in ph. Showing sudden changes in TDS concentration and the associated effects of osmoregulation are responsible for the negative / harmful results for our water critters not changes in ph.
In TDS poor environments that lacks the buffering capacity of hard water chemistry are sudden changes in TDS concentration and the associated effects of osmoregulation the only factors responsible for the negative / harmful results for our water critters or can there be sudden changes in ph with out altering concentrations of TDS. Soft water chemistry might offer a contingency to the notion of TDS shock and the myth of ph shock when including aspects of carbon dioxide, oxygen into considerations (carbon dioxide and oxygen are gases and not TDS).

Contingency:
Consider planted aquarium with very soft water and décor of driftwood. As the plants consume carbon dioxide they release dissolved oxygen into the water column which causes the ph to rise.
We all have some form of algae in our aquariums and algae is a plant that consumes carbon dioxide from the water column and releasing more oxygen raising the ph again. If you have lights in operation for the plants the light raises the temperature of the water column raising the ph even more. In aquariums the ph will always become acidic the more efficient your filter is in nitrifying. Biologically oxidizing ammonia to nitrate the more hydrogen ions H+ will be produced, slowly reducing the buffering abilities of the water column. Now the buffering capacity of soft water is so reduced that the ph becomes very unstable with the continued production of oxygen increasing ph levels fluctuate then crashes.


When the ph crashes in soft water are the results the product of TDS shock or are there other factors in play. Would sudden falling ph along with declining carbon dioxide (I do not know if the respiration of the water critters off sets plant consumption of carbon dioxide) affect ammonia and the nitrogen cycle in the water column, are there other effects to the water chemistry that are not being considered.
Magnesium appears to be an important element in water chemistry. I have read that magnesium is needed for proper osmotic function in water critters and is necessary for calcium assimilation. Can magnesium become toxic with falling ph levels; are there other elements that change toxicity with ph changes?

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You all can’t put this possum in a cage……………………
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