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Adventures of the 35G

This is a discussion on Adventures of the 35G within the Freshwater Journals forums, part of the Aquarium Photography category; --> I did a bit of digging into P. Alternans, because at first I thought that's what they were. But then I realized half the ...

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Adventures of the 35G
Old 01-28-2013, 02:52 PM   #191
 
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I did a bit of digging into P. Alternans, because at first I thought that's what they were. But then I realized half the images I was looking at were actually Pan03, instead of P Alternans. P. Alternans has way more of a spotty look towards the tummy, instead of lots of divided close stripes. It's so hard to tell when they're so small though, so it's all about waiting for them to reach maturity. I'm just hoping those two won't be lonely, and will still shoal with the others when they hit maturity.

Thank you! I'm really glad they like it too, I was so scared they'd hide or wouldn't like it. But they all cruise around playing their little loach games.

I'm so tempted just to set up loach only tanks and order in tons of them just to sort through species, to see what is actually getting shipped around. Which brings me to my next question...what exactly are we buying? It's a little bit discomforting to think of having so many different species chucked around improperly labeled.

I'm wondering if you started a thread about Kuhli loaches asking for pictures of everyone's, just to see if everyone has a mixed bag. Could be pretty fascinating...

This puppy has been through a lot x.x He has a really long story, but long story short my grandpa ended up with him, realized he didn't have to time/energy to train/take care of him so we have him at our house until we can find him a home. He's an absolute doll, but he's had some bad handling so re-training him is priority right now so he's taking up most of my day lol.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:53 PM   #192
 
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They may in fact be P. Alternans though. There's a lot of confusion from what I can see between P. Alternans and Pan03.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:19 PM   #193
 
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Tbh....I'm so confused by the whole thing.... but...... I think you should definitely set up the thread for research/comparison/etc.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #194
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jentralala View Post
They may in fact be P. Alternans though. There's a lot of confusion from what I can see between P. Alternans and Pan03.
Agree. More research needs to be done here, no doubt about that! From the images I've seen (and I've looked up comparisons in various places) the Pan03 classification *seems* to be given more often to the loaches that *LOOK* almost identical (to my eye, anyway) but that have slightly less definition in the 'banding.' So basically, they seem to have that almost leopard-print patterning all over, rather than having stripes as the P. Alternans. I'm not sure if there are any other differences, or if the two are different species - and I don't think anyone knows! how frustrating!

Either way, if you have a loach that resembles P.Alternans - I'm jealous! And still sad that you can't up their shoal size :/ Glad they're doing okay, though! PRETTY lil' things. I can't wait to see what they look like as they hit maturity!

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Tbh....I'm so confused by the whole thing....
HAHA! I think we ALL are!

I highly doubt that a separate thread is going to clarify anything, though. The FACT is that the research on many of these species simply has not been done yet. Many different types of loach come from the same areas, and most of them are wild-caught, as they haven't*quite* figured out how to breed most of them successfully - at least not intentionally - in the aquarium yet. Since they all look so very similar, the fisherman nets whatever little stripey worm-fish he can find, and they're ALL sold under one of two common names, which basically lumps them into the striped and solid types. For the most part, ANY eel-like loach with stripes is likely to be labeled as P.Kuhli - even though it is FAR more likely that even these are *actually* be Pangio semicincta! The patterning among individuals within the same species tend to be highly varied, so to TRULY tell the difference between this and that loach, you have to get into the real nitty gritty - things that aren't going to be easy for a layman to see on a living specimen. . . and that doesn't even get into all of the speceis that have been lumped together, and have later been proven to be their own distinct species, the ones that haven't even be described yet, and the differences between the same species that come from different geological locations! It's a mess :) I'd love to dedicate my live to wading in the muck catching and studying loaches, but. . . I doubt that's gonna happen any time soon! I (obviously) find them fascinating!

Last edited by Chesh; 01-28-2013 at 05:31 PM..
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #195
 
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!!!!!
Lets just give up then!
Jen........all your babies are kuhlis.

Sorted!
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:35 PM   #196
 
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ROFL! They are. As far as the fish shops are concerned a Kuhli loach is a Kuhli loach is a Kuhli loach. They're orange/yellowish with brownish black saddles. But you know, Nile? We gotta KNOW!!!! Just glad IDing my dwarf babies was easier :D
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:51 PM   #197
 
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You know, if I could figure out a way to get paid to wander in the muck all day that's all I would do for the rest of my life haha. You're right, it's hard enough to tell the adults apart, much less the juveniles. I want them to grow up so I can see their coloring, but then again I kinda want them to be babies forever and ever >:)

How about we call them Cuties instead ;P
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:12 PM   #198
 
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Cuties is already taken by ALL loaches! *nods*

I missed your post previously, if you want me to I can set up a thread like that, but I doubt it'd get us far. You know how hard it is to get a good picture of a loach! LOL! Have you tried putting up images on that other forum that's ALL about loaches? There are a ton of Loach ID posts - mine's up there, too! Browsing through those threads might help you out a bit, even if you don't post specifically for yourself. I think you're right, though. They need to grow out a bit - too hard to capture a bitty one really well enough to see the detail, and with them being so young. . . I don't know how much they'll change before they hit adulthood. I imagine that some of their markings will become a bit darker with time. . . maybe. . .lol!

One thing that I've noticed - and this could very easily be untrue - but it seems to me that 2012 was a REALLY difficult year for the stripey loaches. . . in my area, earlier last year when I got my first two groups - and also in the years BEFORE that, I saw the 'normal' Kuhli were everywhere! Every LFS shop had them every time I went in (they always caught my eye, even before I kept fish, I'd randomly go into LFS and look around with the girls) and they all looked the same - none of this tiny baby business. . .

But when I went back to get more for my shoal, NOBODY had them! I checked or called EVERY LFS within a 2-hour limit of my house, and in every place the shopkeepers were saying the same thing "We've been having a really difficult time ordering those in, can't get them, for some reason!" I left my information with every shop, and called back every few months to double-check - but they kept saying the same thing.

I started to look online at people's threads (not always on this forum) who had an interest in the species, and I noticed a LOT of reports from seemingly good fish-keepers stating that they had just gotten a group of Kuhli, and the entire batch died one by one within a week - and not ONLY theirs, but in every case, when they called the shop, their shops were saying that they ALSO had gotten a 'bad batch'

I have REALLY been wondering what could be going on here!? If they've finally figured out how to breed what we call P. Kuhli on the fish farms, or if they're still mostly wild-caught - as all of the sources still say. . . ? It *could* be, that if they were farming them, perhaps the some kind of loach protozoan was going through the bunch. From my understanding, the majority of the farmed fish that we get in our country come from only a few sources. If there was some trouble on the farms, this would explain the failing stock, and the subsequent difficulty in ordering these fish. . .

Or, if they ARE wild-caught still, perhaps the supply of what we call P.Kuhli is dwindling, or - as they're caught in the same areas, perhaps there was an illness going through the natural system that was harming them, specifically, and so we're seeing more and more of the different species sold in their stead? I still ALWAYS see P.Kuhli for sale in shops on line - but I've never seen their stock with my own eyes to verify that they are the right critters. . .

So, after nearly a year of searching, ONE LFS finally got in a batch of Kuhli - and they called me. You know that story, and they turned out NOT to be Kuhli. Now I see your thread, and you end up with what *could* be a fairly rare misfits in your specially ordered batch of Kuhli. . .and I really have to continue wondering what is going on with our loaches?!

there I went again. . . ^___^ I'm sure it isn't a big mystery, but it DOES seem odd from my limited perspective!
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:18 AM   #199
 
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One thing that I've been wondering about is the fact that they are netting up these fish from the water and "sorting" them, obviously quite poorly, so there are in fact many different species getting caught and sold. So this means that, most likely, no one is really keeping track of the wild numbers. Who's to say that the entire supply isn't exhausted and they're netting them elsewhere, where different species to what is "common" abound?

Idk, it's just a bit of a random thought I've had floating from what you've said about the difficulty in getting them, and it's a bit worrisome that there doesn't seems to be any regulation on the eel-like loaches.

Also, about what you said about different specie being sold in their stead - that's a horrifying thought. That someone is purposefully mis-informing the public. It's obviously not the easiest thing to properly classify them, but from a purely business standpoint, why not sell them as what they are, and just jack up the price?

I'd like to increase my group sometime along the line but at this point I think I'm more on the reluctant side to do so, lmao.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:29 AM   #200
 
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I totally understand, and feel the same way! I don't know if anyone is really keeping tabs on things over there, but I'm hoping so - for the sake of these amazing little creatures! When I got my dwarf loach, I told the owner of that shop what he had, and he's STILL selling them as 'Kuhli loach,' I know it's a common name, but I still think that he should have at least put up 'dwarf kuhli loach, and as you said - charge more for this 'rare' speceis. *shrugs* Guess he figured he could make more money/sales by just keeping them labeled as Kuhli...

ANYWAY, I know *I* could talk about loach forever, but we're probably boring your other readers. I know Nile was done with the loach-talk ages ago!

I've been wondering. . . how are those gourami of yours doing?
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