2 dead white clouds
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2 dead white clouds

This is a discussion on 2 dead white clouds within the Cyprinids and Atherinids forums, part of the Freshwater and Tropical Fish category; --> I have a 26 gal tank with 5 female bettas, 5 cories and, until this morning, 5 White Clouds. The WC's were doing fine ...

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Old 05-30-2012, 08:15 AM   #1
 
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2 dead white clouds

I have a 26 gal tank with 5 female bettas, 5 cories and, until this morning, 5 White Clouds. The WC's were doing fine for 2 weeks, then last night I noticed one of them was picking on the others non-stop. I have never seen the bettas do more than lunge at them but not chase them. They don't pick on the cories either.

This morning I got up and noticed 2 WC's were missing. I found them floating at the top with their tail fins completely picked off. The one WC is still vigourously chasing the other two around.

I didn't think WC's were capable of killing each other. I don't know whether I should just leave them alone, rehouse them in a smaller tank to watch/protect them, or buy more fish to restock the school and spread out the aggression. Any thoughts?
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:43 PM   #2
 
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I'd suspect a disease issue before I would suspect "white cloud-on-white cloud violence", although White Clouds are notably hardy fish. How aggressive are the betta females? Do you see any signs of illness on any fish? Are they all new to your tank?
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:06 PM   #3
 
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I'd suspect a disease issue before I would suspect "white cloud-on-white cloud violence", although White Clouds are notably hardy fish. How aggressive are the betta females? Do you see any signs of illness on any fish? Are they all new to your tank?
None of my fish appear to be ill. The bettas chase each other around here and there but also hang out together in small groups. I have never seen one seriously chase a White Cloud or cory. They don't flare at other species either. I've had the White Clouds for about a week now.

The only thing that was different last night was that one WC seemed to be picking on the others, that's why I thought that could be the cause. The dead fish were floating on the surface, not caught in the filter or anything else.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:55 AM   #4
 
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What temperature is the tank? White clouds are not strictly-speaking "tropical" and should not be above normal room temperature (low 70's). The corys might be fine with this, but no the Betta. So right off you have incompatible fish. Plus, the active swimming of fish like white clouds are not a good match for sedate fish like Betta.

I'm not suggesting the above issues are directly responsible, but they may very well be indirectly related. Inappropriate water params (like temp) and inappropriate fish combinations will cause stress, and that weakens the stressed fish. Which can quickly bring on increased aggression even in fish which otherwise show none, disease, etc.

In the aquarium, everything is related.

Byron.

Edit. Almost forgot, white clouds are cyprinids, not characins (tetra), so I will move this thread into Cyprinids.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:03 PM   #5
 
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What temperature is the tank? White clouds are not strictly-speaking "tropical" and should not be above normal room temperature (low 70's). The corys might be fine with this, but no the Betta. So right off you have incompatible fish. Plus, the active swimming of fish like white clouds are not a good match for sedate fish like Betta.
My temp now is 80, so yes I guess it's too high for the white clouds. The remaining ones seem to be OK other than one chasing the other two all the time.

RE the Bettas, these are females who have short fins and I wouldn't call them sedate. ;) They spend a lot of time chasing each other or flaring at each other. But they seem to ignore the white clouds. The white clouds stay in the centre top of the tank and the bettas prefer the heavily-planted areas and the bottom.

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I'm not suggesting the above issues are directly responsible, but they may very well be indirectly related. Inappropriate water params (like temp) and inappropriate fish combinations will cause stress, and that weakens the stressed fish. Which can quickly bring on increased aggression even in fish which otherwise show none, disease, etc.
I guess we'll never know why two previously healthy looking fish died in one night. I took the precaution of putting filter sponge in the intake pipe cage of the filter in case the filter could have had something to do with it.

Now I'm wondering what to do with the remaining white clouds. I only have a half-gallon betta bowl that's not in use if I were to take them out of the tank and put them elsewhere in more suitable temperature. Can they live alone (as a group) in unfiltered water and frequent (every second day) water changes? I am wondering if that would be too stressful for them.

Also I'm concerned that three fish is not enough to make them feel comfortable in a shoal, and that's why one is chasing the others now. Should I just let the remaining three live out their lives or should I get a couple more?
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:42 PM   #6
 
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My temp now is 80, so yes I guess it's too high for the white clouds. The remaining ones seem to be OK other than one chasing the other two all the time.

RE the Bettas, these are females who have short fins and I wouldn't call them sedate. ;) They spend a lot of time chasing each other or flaring at each other. But they seem to ignore the white clouds. The white clouds stay in the centre top of the tank and the bettas prefer the heavily-planted areas and the bottom.



I guess we'll never know why two previously healthy looking fish died in one night. I took the precaution of putting filter sponge in the intake pipe cage of the filter in case the filter could have had something to do with it.

Now I'm wondering what to do with the remaining white clouds. I only have a half-gallon betta bowl that's not in use if I were to take them out of the tank and put them elsewhere in more suitable temperature. Can they live alone (as a group) in unfiltered water and frequent (every second day) water changes? I am wondering if that would be too stressful for them.

Also I'm concerned that three fish is not enough to make them feel comfortable in a shoal, and that's why one is chasing the others now. Should I just let the remaining three live out their lives or should I get a couple more?
It's very difficult for me to advise here. The fish are not compatible as I've previously indicated. The white clouds are clearly under stress.
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:30 PM   #7
 
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It's very difficult for me to advise here. The fish are not compatible as I've previously indicated. The white clouds are clearly under stress.
I don't want to keep them under stress. If I get an extra tank for them, how large would be enough for the white clouds? Do they need a filter or can they live without filtration and just frequent water changes? Are they ok with just three as a group or should I add a couple more, assuming I get another tank?
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:54 AM   #8
 
If you've only had the white clouds for about two weeks, is there any chance your supplier would take them back? If so, it might be the simplest and kindest answer.

BTW, on a completely different subject, I'm impressed with your four tarantulas. Seriously cool.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:11 AM   #9
 
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If you've only had the white clouds for about two weeks, is there any chance your supplier would take them back? If so, it might be the simplest and kindest answer.
I don't think Petsmart would take them back because there's nothing wrong with the fish and I've had them for a while. I want to put them in a separate tank but I'm hoping someone here can help me with tank size, filtered or not? before I go out and buy one.

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BTW, on a completely different subject, I'm impressed with your four tarantulas. Seriously cool.
Yeah I like them! They are just as addictive as fish. I bought one rose-hair and ended up with three more. Here's my red-knee who just molted:

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Old 06-01-2012, 10:13 AM   #10
 
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Cattitude, the answers to your questions on the white clouds are in our profile, click White Cloud Mountain Minnow for the profile. I put a tremendous amount of time and effort into our freshwater profiles; if you have any questions after reading that, I would be happy to help if I can.

On the filtration question, which is something not in the profiles, with lots of live plants filters can be avoided but personally i always like a small filter just for some water movement. A simple sponge is adequate.
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