Angels with Bolivian Rams??? - Page 2 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #11 of 25 Old 09-22-2010, 06:58 PM
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Sorry to jack a thread that's nearly a month old, but I just got two of these guys today. I want a pair and I'm pretty broke so I just got two. It's a planted 55g tank so I know they'll be fine either as a male/female pair or as two males with separate territories.

If I wanted to add more later, would changing up the decorations be enough to break up territories and give everyone a chance, or is it too risky with the Bolivian Rams?

30g SE Asian Tank
15 Lambchop Rasbora
2 Gold White Cloud Minnows
3 Dwarf Chain Loaches
2 Powder Blue Dwarf Gourami

55g Amazon Tank
2 Wild Type Angels
1 Marble Angel
1 Black Angel
1 Koi Angel
2 Bolivian Rams
14 Pristella Tetra
10 Dwarf Pencilfish
2-3 Twig Catfish (to come)
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post #12 of 25 Old 09-22-2010, 07:22 PM
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In a 55g tank, I personally would only keep two regardless of moving decorations. I kept two in my 55g and only increased it to three when I upgraded to a 120g long.
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post #13 of 25 Old 09-22-2010, 07:28 PM
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Thanks Lisa. I'll be bummed if they're not a pair, but what can you do?

30g SE Asian Tank
15 Lambchop Rasbora
2 Gold White Cloud Minnows
3 Dwarf Chain Loaches
2 Powder Blue Dwarf Gourami

55g Amazon Tank
2 Wild Type Angels
1 Marble Angel
1 Black Angel
1 Koi Angel
2 Bolivian Rams
14 Pristella Tetra
10 Dwarf Pencilfish
2-3 Twig Catfish (to come)
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post #14 of 25 Old 09-22-2010, 08:22 PM
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You should be OK. I agree with Lisa, regardless of what they turn out to be, leave it at two. Differentiating male/female is fairly easy if they are mature; in juvenile fish, which is usually what is available in stores, it is next to impossible. Sometimes observing them for a period of time and noting behaviours may help, but in my experience this works better with the common ram than with Bolivians.

Also from experience, I do not recommend adding fish later for another reason, temperament. The same thing happens with angels, as Lisa knows from her own experience. When one of these is in a tank on its own it views the tank as its personal territory. Adding another fish can frequently result in the death of the new fish solely from the aggressiveness of the original. Angels and Bolivians should be acquired in a group together (when the group is wanted). Your two together will probably settle in fine whatever their sex. If they are a pair, spawning will certainly occur, and that is fascinating to observe.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #15 of 25 Old 09-22-2010, 11:16 PM
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Yeah. I sorta had my heart set on a pair and clearly the easiest way to manage that is get get a reliable pair already or, short of that, to buy a group of five or so and know that the odds are in your favor. We'll just have to see.

30g SE Asian Tank
15 Lambchop Rasbora
2 Gold White Cloud Minnows
3 Dwarf Chain Loaches
2 Powder Blue Dwarf Gourami

55g Amazon Tank
2 Wild Type Angels
1 Marble Angel
1 Black Angel
1 Koi Angel
2 Bolivian Rams
14 Pristella Tetra
10 Dwarf Pencilfish
2-3 Twig Catfish (to come)
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post #16 of 25 Old 09-23-2010, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Sooo since I only have one angel at this moment (the other died awhile ago) does this mean adding other fish such as another angel, bolivian rams, and hatchet fish result in the death of those fish??
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post #17 of 25 Old 09-23-2010, 10:23 AM
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The Angelfish will not harm new Bolivian's. Old Bolivian's might harm new Bolivian's depending on how long you've had the older Bolivian's and if not given enough space and territory. As for adding new Angels with old Angels, that's questionable. My male Angel killed any new Angel I added. It turns out it was because he had a female in with him and he was protecting his mate (I did not know at the time that I had a pair). Is your older Angel mature or still young? Since you only have one, you could try adding a group at a time, depending on your tank size but I wouldn't go much smaller than the size of your current Angel. What is your tank size?
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post #18 of 25 Old 09-23-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish1983 View Post
Sooo since I only have one angel at this moment (the other died awhile ago) does this mean adding other fish such as another angel, bolivian rams, and hatchet fish result in the death of those fish??
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The issue is fish of the same species, when that species is highly territorial to the extent that most cichlids are (by comparison to other fish like characins or cyprinids). As it notes in the profile of angelfish, they should be acquired as a group at the same time, preferably when young. If you have 2 angels in a 55g tank and they are there for some time, they consider that tank as their territory. Ading another angel is bound to be problematic. Same with Bolivians.

Adding characins (hatchetfish are characins) is not the same, either within the species or with other fish. I frequently add characins to existing groups, they immediately settle in, happy to see more of their own species. While all fish are territorial to some degree, with characins this is usually--not always--insignificant.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #19 of 25 Old 09-23-2010, 11:03 AM
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Byron, he said he only has one angelfish now. What do you recommend in that scenario? Can he add a few more at a time since the one angelfish isn't paired up or do you think the single Angelfish will still attack?
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-23-2010, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LisaC144 View Post
Byron, he said he only has one angelfish now. What do you recommend in that scenario? Can he add a few more at a time since the one angelfish isn't paired up or do you think the single Angelfish will still attack?
This is a 55g tank; if the sole angel is a male, he will consider the tank his domain. Females will likely be accepted, other males may or may not. As you know from your experience Lisa, different fish behave differently, and while it is easy to say what "may" happen it is not easy to say what "will" happen. On the other hand, if it is a female, it is less likely to be trouble.

If it were me, with one angel in a 55g, and assuming the tank is well planted and provides the proper environment--I would add 4 more fish. I would attempt to get fish the same size as the existing angel. I would certainly not add just 1 or even 2 more; a group of 4 more is more likely to spread any aggression.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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