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Lone female diamond tetra

This is a discussion on Lone female diamond tetra within the Characins forums, part of the Freshwater and Tropical Fish category; --> Originally Posted by Olympia Yes, that's why I'm wary, cories are sensitive fish, though in this case the betta are more at risk. Think ...

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Lone female diamond tetra
Old 05-27-2012, 01:49 PM   #41
 
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Yes, that's why I'm wary, cories are sensitive fish, though in this case the betta are more at risk.
Think this went unnoticed: Dawn, do you think the Cory will catch up size wise to the rest once he is cured or is he permanently stunted?
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I don't mean to second guess Dawn, but from my experience I seldom worry about some fish of a species remaining small as others grow. I frequently see this with shoaling fish like characins, corys. Provided the small fish is behaving normally and eating, I just accept it. The reason may be genetics, Dawn will know more about this than I. Sometimes it is male/female, the latter naturally being the larger, or in some species the reverse.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:56 PM   #42
 
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Yea, that was my earlier concern. I already described him earlier. I have been seeing him more with the group lately (after I reduced the filter flow that was giving him trouble). Would his breathing be faster naturally since he is smaller? I'm going to keep observing him, I think his stomach looked full today as well. I feel I may have jumped to conclusions, but again I can't be certain.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:06 PM   #43
 
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Yea, that was my earlier concern. I already described him earlier. I have been seeing him more with the group lately (after I reduced the filter flow that was giving him trouble). Would his breathing be faster naturally since he is smaller? I'm going to keep observing him, I think his stomach looked full today as well. I feel I may have jumped to conclusions, but again I can't be certain.
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Keep an eye on him. Faster respiration "than normal" is a concern, but recognize that faster respiration naturally occurs with increased activity (rather obvious) but other things too like eating, if just fed. And smaller fish do respire slightly faster.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:03 PM   #44
 
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The condition of the female has gotten worse. She's in a death spiral and it doesn't look good. I'm trying to pick up some things today, but that depends on my mom who's asleep.
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:00 PM   #45
 
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Well the female died, I'm still going to look for the metro+ and something close.
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:15 PM   #46
 
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Well the female died, I'm still going to look for the metro+ and something close.
Don't be discouraged. I have never, and I mean never in 20 years of fishkeeping, had any fish recover when it showed severe symptoms. Once alerted to an obvious problem, I try to identify it and where needed treat the tank/fish accordingly. I am obviously saddened by the loss of any fish, but I consider it an achievement when the problem is stopped, preventing further losses.

Obvious things like a fungus and ich and velvet can be dealt with and if caught early the fish will survive. But when it is something that has no external signs beyond obvious abnormal behaviour, many different possibilities arise.

During my recent bout of some unknown pathogen, the fish in my 115g went from 118 down to 80 in a matter of 6 or 7 days, with treatment beginning mid-way. On the morning that I found all fish from the previous evening still alive I was elated, because I knew I had curtailed the problem.

Diagnosing fish ailments and the appropriate treatment is a very complicated and difficult aspect of this hobby. Dawn has spent over 20 years studying this area; few of us have this dedication.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:22 PM   #47
 
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Well the female died, I'm still going to look for the metro+ and something close.

I too agree with Byron. Don't give up on the hobby, even though you've been through some bumps. I'm going to soon lose my lone male German Ram :(
It's so hard to know what goes wrong, and if you're treating the right thing. I saw what is clearly hole in head, treated for it (API General Cure). After the course of treatment he still had the symptoms. My mistake was trying to cure it without meds first, by doing a large water change, adding black extract and Indian almond leaf (probably should have treated immediately). Always learning :) Fish store today tells me the only way to treat that disease is with the medicated food. Today, he's on the bottom, which means I feel he won't respond to anything at this point. He's not eating now, so using the medicated food won't do me any good.

I've really enjoyed these fish, had them even spawn a number of times, but it's on to something different for me!

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Old 05-28-2012, 04:53 PM   #48
 
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Gwen, my choice for treating hole in the head in rams is hexamit which treats the water. Not all fish can handle that medication well so this is best done in quarantine. (Brand name for this med is often seen as "HexOut") If you'd like me to find you a link online for it please let me know. Hole in the head is seldom fatal in itself. More commonly it begins and opens the fish up to secondary infection which is then usually the cause of death. If you'd still like help with your ram please let me know, I would be more than happy to help you with that if I can.

Back to this thread topic and Byron's mention of genetics. Yes, in some cases, genetics can play a part in 1 fish in a particular shoal being smaller (often referred to as a "runt") but there are a number of things that can stunt growth and it's not always easy or possible to determine the cause of stunting. When it is illness and other than genetics that causes stunting it is often possible for the fish to return to normal growth rate once it is well again.

Organ damage can also contribute to slowed growth rate, as can hormone levels and a number of other factors. In situations of organ damage, this is usually a permanent condition, however, growth can resume to some degree if conditions and general health of the fish improve and allow for it. Hormone levels are also something that can often be dealt with, primarily with water changes and making sure the tank is not over crowded with fish, especially those of that particular species. When people do water changes in an aquarium they think primarily of waste levels and "cleaning" the water from such. There are other things in the water column that can affect the growth and health of the fish, excreted hormones being one of those things, mineral content being another. Not only can things build up in the water, unseen to the human eye, but other things can be depleted in the water, also unseen to the human eye.

Lastly I'd like to point out that nutrition also plays a big role in growth rate. Too much of a particular nutrient can be just as bad as not enough. When fish are competing for food they may not all be getting enough of one particular type which contains nutrients they need, thus there becomes a change in overall health as well as growth rate. In regards to nutrient intake, there is also the fish's ability to process specific nutrients. This can be caused by genetic problems as well as health problems/illness/disease. Think about it in terms of someone who is lactose intolerant vs a sibling or parent who is not. It happens in any species and the particular issue can vary on a very wide range scale of possibilities.

These are all reasons why I discourage people from inbreeding their fish to focus on specific traits. The more inbred a fish is (in way of generation) the more likely it is to have genetic defects and any of the other possibilities I listed above along with a weaker immune system, etc. Because most people never know the actual origin of where their fish came from, it's not uncommon to see fish with these problems for these reasons and never be able to determine/identify that as the source cause. This is also why wild caught fish are so desired by experienced hobbyists... the chances of that fish being inbred is much less likely than a tank raised fish. A good rule of thumb when thoughts of breeding come to mind for anyone with any species of fish is to avoid buying your pairs at the same time from the same tank or shipment of fish. This gives a better chance of the fish you intend to breed not being closely related to each other, and thus a much healthier spawn outcome. Because most pet stores in a general location order their fish from the same suppliers/wholesalers/breeders regularly, going to another local store at the same time is likely to also result in obtaining closely related fish that all came from the same place, same spawn.

I hope this info helps.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:55 PM   #49
 
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Thank you both! I went to two different stores and I couldn't find any medicated food. In the end I bough some tetra parasite guard, I only bought because it had metronidazole listed as one of the ingredients. They're in tablet form.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:17 PM   #50
 
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Going to take the moment to step out and say that last night I had the impulse to double the amount of food I gave the cories. Today it's all gone. I hope I haven't been causing my runt's problems. I am totally new to any non betta fish. Learning experience. Should I keep increasing amount of food I put in until there are leftovers? I can't really watch them eat because I always feed them before lights out, they are pretty slow/shy eaters (yesterday was the first time I actually saw them eating in fact). Hopefully that'll be the end of that.

Sorry to hear about the tetra, and the ram. :/ Medicating fish is turning out to be as complex as medicating dogs.

About the inbreeding, as you guys probably know, it's huge with betta fish. Thinking it over I rationalized that there is no gene that can be passed on to get those "perfect" fish, with perfectly straight fins, as most "perfect" pairs produce around 96% "bad" fry. It became a huge argument on the betta forum and it's made me realize that there isn't really much point in breeding them the way people do, if these perfect traits are luck of the draw, how a fish's fins grow out. There is absolutely no improvement going on with them as a species (maybe a new colour every now and then, which are mutations). Some people will argue that their halfmoons live longer than pet store betta (not true). Show betta can be just as fragile as "pet shop" ones, with just as bad of genetics, just that culling bad fry is so popular that we don't really notice. The only betta that are clearly stronger are the plakat (short finned) ones, as they have been bred for centuries to be the strongest fighters, only recently did people start throwing fancy colours into them.
The rule for inbreeding bettas, is 8 generations straight of inbreeding daughter/mother/father/son/siblings. They say fish genetics are "simpler" than a dogs, but I'm starting to feel that it's because we don't test for things in fish like we do in show dogs.
Sorry for getting off track there. I've never even thought about inbreeding in other fish species, but with betta it's really obvious and something I'm no longer in support of myself.
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