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Mycobacteria

60K views 213 replies 39 participants last post by  FishTankExpert 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
In light of the recent posts, and all the misinformation on the web and floating around in this forum, let me set a few records straight.

Mycos is nothing to be considered lightly. I have been in regular conversation with fish pathologists for almost a year now, and it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish. You need to read the article I have created at the link below, and take it very serious, as it is based on the research of people that look at mycos for a living:



I have friends that have dealt or are dealing with this. FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on. I finally contacted a fish pathologist and sent THIRTY fish representing every tank or system I had. The ones with lesions tested positive for mycos right off the lesions they presented.

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos. Fish from 30 days to 9 months of age. It was recommended I send more fish to the leading researcher in mycobacteria here in the US to determine the strain. They were unable to grow the bacteria to determine what strain I was dealing with and was told that is not unusual for many mycos strains. It took DNA to determine what I had. My results and currently what many betta breeders are dealing with is M. Triplex. Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people.

If you read the article I posted you will see there are different types of mycos. Some move fast and others a bit slower. But the end result is THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. Some mycos can be managed as there is no way to completely eradicate it. But you destroy the pathogenic ones and manage water conditions to reduce affect of the others.

I was told Lysol will kill it. Not knowing there were different Lysols I ran a major heavy solution through my barracks for TWO WEEKS. I drained that down, ran water through it a few days, drained it down and ran a super concentrated bleach solution through another TWO WEEKS. I brought the system back online and put some of my most promising fish in the barracks and EACH ONE CAME DOWN WITH THE DISEASE AGAIN! The ones still in the tank never got it. So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious.

So once again I have had to destroy some absolutely beautiful fish. More discussion with the pathologists and we found I did not use a proper cleaner. I sure as heck do now. EVERYTHING.., nets, hoses, tanks, lights water test vials.. EVERYTHING gets hit with the anti TB chemical after EVERY use. My trash cans for water are broken down and sprayed every few weeks. Even my hands between tanks. I set a timer as there has to be 5 minutes contact time. I refuse to destroy any more fish. I have clean stock now and I am going to keep it that way.

In the meantime. My recommendations.. for all it is worth..

Get a hold of a local vet or go online and get something that will kill TB. The article I linked to has a link to chemicals that will kill mycobacteria. Treat EVERYTHING in your fish room no matter how small. And treat any tank with it when you break it down... sick fish or not. Keep the stuff on hand and act like it is ever present to get a foothold in your fish room. Practice good bio-security and you should prevent it or get rid of it. If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.
 
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#114 ·
Thank so much for this information now that I'm getting ready to set up another tank I will definitely keep this in mind. This information needs to be a sticky.
It would be a useful sticky if it could be re-written to be more organized and especially with less hysteria inducing language.

FOR EXAMPLE:


it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish.........

FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on........

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos........

Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people.........

THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. .........

So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious.......

If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.
 
#104 ·
I am worried that other breeders/farms won't be as careful with their stock and then the fish available to me, the average Joe pet owner/consumer, will have this disease, and then I couldn't hope to see my betta live past a year of age.
 
#110 ·
I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
So yea, sure, most fish have M.
But cases of MT or MM still seem uncommon..

Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
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#107 ·
Are you an idiot or do you just choose to be ignorant? I have spelled out more ways than one I have spoken DIRECTLY with those PAID to research this disease IN FISH. Take it for what you will. Attacking me and trying to discredit my information from those MORE EDUCATED than you is not doing anything but making you look rather foolish. You obviously believe in your own importance more than those whose living is researching fish disease. Go supervise your yeast.
lol BB.. Anyone who actually takes the time to read what you say, and who can understand it know you are only repeating what actual experts have told you/warned you. I don't want you to look bad in all of this, as you had done nothing wrong in creating this thread.. Most of the people reading this (who are keeping quiet) are behind you and can see that the ones who have thrown around arguments and make claims like this can be healed in a fish are making themselves look bad.. don't want you to stoop to their level.

This thread wasn't an opinion by one person, this thread isn't about how every fish has it and you have to keep your tank clean to avoid it. This isn't something that can be cured. It's a warning from experts in the proper field about how this is starting to become pretty wide spread, and if people can't see it for what it is, then it's on them to look silly :p But most of us see it the way it is meant.. no one can take away your reputation, BB, and the people who know you, know you are one of the best out there when it comes to caring/breeding for these fish and helps others out at the drop of a dime.

No offense to anyone here in particular, but this is this forum.. not surprising this took off the way it did :sarcastic:

Okay, now expect a 100 pictures of sick fish :D
 
#108 ·
I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....


Guppy ------
Definitely some sort of tuberculosis.... This fish had extreme bloating, and lesions.. It was like this for around two weeks, i then euthanized as it was the most humane thing to do. This escalated slowly.... MAY 2012

Guppy-------
I'm not sure on this one. He got a bit bloated and then all of a sudden died, within two to three days. OCTOBER 2012

Betta --------
He started to bloat really bad, and was on the bottom of the tank for a while. Sakura helped treat with metronidazole, worked like a charm. Came back on Monday night, died Tuesday. OCTOBER 2012 AND JANUARY 2012

Platy -------
On Tuesday night, had raised scales, fin rot, and white bit on her, all of a sudden. Died Wednesday morning. JANUARY 2013


Platy and two guppies were from same store and lived in same tank. I use all the same supplies.

Any thought?
 
#113 ·
Would need more info on their care - water change schedule/%, food.. some of what you say they have doesn't apply, fin rot is due to water quality + damaged fins, bloating could be a bacteria infection, tumor, improper diet, etc. Raised scales tend to be from organs shutting down, which could be caused for any number of reasons.

Anyone want to acknowledge what I said?
Once this thing strikes you may not notice it for months and months, and by then the fish have bred multiple times. So it is very easy for it to get out there to the general public before it is caught. Not to mention a lot of mass breeders on the farms that don't always pay attention to the health of the fish.. toss away the dead, throw in a new one. Not all, but some.. just like with puppy mills/dog breeding.. there are good ones, and not so good ones. It's smaller breeders who do it from home who catch what is going on much more quicker and easier..

But it doesn't mean that everyone needs to worry and not buy fish.. the point of this thread is to warn people it's out there and to take precautions and try to buy the healthiest fish you see. I've purchased my fair share of store fish and only one had an issue that showed right after purchase - luckily was just internal parasitic infestation. This shouldn't stop you from buying a fish, just be more aware of the health of the fish you are purchasing. Don't try to "rescue" a sick fish, as you then run the risk of causing your other fish to become sick with one thing or another.
So don't freak out Finn.. you can't control what happens sometimes with new fish, you can control the care they get when you bring them home. It's common for a newly purchased betta to pass away within a couple weeks of being brought home for unknown causes.. but that doesn't stop people from buying them. It happens. Just make sure to keep the tank and the equipment clean and more likely than not, your fish will be fine.
 
#112 ·
Could my tank have mycotoxins, not mycobacterium?
 
#115 ·
Put yourself in her shoes.. how would you feel if after years of working lines (remember it takes 3+ months in order to breed the next generation), and killing hundreds of your fish including ones you have fallen in love with, etc.. how would you feel? Anger? Sadness? Disheartened? Wouldn't you be a bit passionate when telling people what happened? Whether it's anger or sadness coming through.. you will still make a point in warning others, and that point can easily be very straightforward and blunt and there is nothing wrong with that.

It wasn't until she got attacked for no reason did the words get stronger.

Put yourself in her shoes and then tell me you would be very calm and pleasant when describing what you had to do to your beloved fish.

If this were to be rewritten, I would use the article she wrote along with her personal story.. but the facts are still the same.. this was a warning, not an attack, on her part.
 
#129 ·
I was thinking this same thing. Yes, there were some harsh words in there... Some I did find offensive... But I can see why. I have five bettas, and I would be absolutely devastated if this happened to them, probably beyond mad (at no one in particular but it would help to have an outlet) and also, out a lot of money. This being said, I have four tanks and one is still empty. I have no doubt it my mind that the amount this costed her far exceeded the entire amount of money I've spent on my fish in my lifetime (and its quite a bit, especially considering that my fish are only pets and I do not breed). It seriously scares the life out of me to think what would happen if this got into my fish tanks, but it is a good warning, and intended to help people. I'm sure anyone who lost that many fish in one day would act the same way... And of course she would be angry with others for not trying to get rid of this mycobacteria because she doesn't want it to end up back in any of her tanks.



That being said... I'm really confused about this, now. Considering the fact that all this scientific language does nothing but confuse me, it needs to be kind of "dumbed down" for me to understand it. I've seen a lot of scary symptoms here and also scary outcomes of this mycobacteria crud, but I also understand that there are different strains. It can live in a fish for weeks, months.. Even years, correct? Are there differences between the life spans of the fish? I'm understanding that healthy fish can live with certain strains but other strains will kill any fish it touches, correct? How much do we really know about each specific strain? Which are more dangerous? Which kill faster? Are the symptoms the same for all of them?

I guess what I would like to see is maybe a chart of some sort that kind of explains what we know about the specific strains, how long they take to kill a fish, symptoms, etc... Because this is just all over the place and I'm more confused than I was to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying, in one sentence, is that I get the point of the thread to spread awareness but with the scattered information, its very difficult for me to pinpoint what exactly I'm supposed to be aware of because I feel like this thread is not solely focused on one thing...
 
#118 ·
Unfortunately, in her first post, she was rather rude and as Olympia said, it had to be edited. Her words were quite strong and insulting to many people.

I understand her frustration, truly I do. I realize she has invested thousands of dollars in her fish and I am glad she wants to warn people of the danger. It's simply that there are less hysterical ways of doing it. No one is doubting that she had a problem, no one is doubting that she has taken care of it. No one is attacking her fishkeeping methods and if they are, they are in the wrong to do so because no one takes better care of fish than breeders. What is being questioned is simply how widespread the disease is.

The bottom line is this and no one can argue with this:

Without testing/dissecting thousands if not millions of fish from pet stores around the world to see if they truly have this strain of mycobacteria, it is irresponsible of ANYONE (be they a published author or a newbie) to say that this is widespread and that every fish has it and will die from it.

BB herself has said, as have several other published experts, that there is no way to tell if a fish truly has this strain of mycobacteria without these tests to see if the granulomas are present. Pointing out the external symptoms does not help because many diseases have symptoms that mimic each other and in addition, as Callistra pointed out, there are also many secondary diseases to be dealt with as well that could be causing physical symptoms.

If this thread continues to be a point of contention in which people take sides and accuse each other of attacking the other side, it will be closed and removed.
 
#124 ·
Selected quotes:
BB herself has said, as have several other published experts, that there is no way to tell if a fish truly has this strain of mycobacteria without these tests to see if the granulomas are present. Pointing out the external symptoms does not help because many diseases have symptoms that mimic each other and in addition, as Callistra pointed out, there are also many secondary diseases to be dealt with as well that could be causing physical symptoms.
Also, these tests can not be done on live fish.

"Currently, there are no non-lethal tests for screening fish for mycobacterial diseases."
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/
 
#123 ·
Sakura, I came to this thread late.. this morning, so I didn't see the first post. Based on what I have seen, I responded to how it made me feel reading everything. To me, arguing with someone warning others just annoyed me.. and I too started to become argumentative. Easy to jump on the bandwagon it seems.

As I had not seen the original post, I can't attest to how it was presented. I have seen BB in different places other than this forum, so I judged based what I had seen and experienced off of those, why I jumped to her defense. Not saying I wouldn't do it again - but my wording would most likely be different. BB is someone I respect, among some others, when it comes to breeding/caring for betta fish. I have not seen anything from her that I have ever questioned, disagreed or disliked. So I got upset reading what I did.

Either way, we can still turn this around and have a proper discussion over it.. no reason to argue what scientists have actually said to her personally, as no one else from here was there, and she has no reason to lie.

Okay.. I'll stop and be nice now :)
 
#127 ·
Well if it can not show up for months then I have no way of knowing that a potential pet will have it or not....so I am going to forget I read this at all because I never believed in buying sick looking fish and I don't breed.
 
#128 ·
I wouldn't worry too much finfin. All 50+ of my bettas were sickie fish when I picked them out and not one of them have had the mystery disease or anything even similar to it. Although I normally do not go for one's on death's door either.
 
#130 · (Edited)
The reason this upsets me so much is because I feel like this is just Mycoplasma all over again but in fish....

For those of you who don't know, Mycoplasma is a disease that every domestic rat has. It is an autoimmune disease and it shortens the lifespan of every pet rat. If it weren't for Mycoplasma, domestic rats would living 5, maybe 6 years regularly...But because of this many don't make it past 3 or 4. every single domestic rat has it...they get it in the birth canal. Wild rats are not affected by this.

Now I am worried that it will be the same story for our pet betta fish...
 
#138 · (Edited)
I know that this is a random question, but is there anyway to remove the disease from the pet rat population? Like preforming a C-Section on the mother to bypass the birth canal? I know that a few would be most likely sacraficed for it and it would take some skilled people to do it, but it would help so many others!
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#131 ·
*hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old*

What I'm beginning to find interesting is that when I compare the symptoms that Coppermoon describes and what BB is describing, they are different. Copper's symptoms mirror the "mystery disease" while BB's are more along the lines of what we typically think of when we think of mycobacteria: slower-moving, wasting, ulcers and sores. This makes me think that the strain of myco that Coppermoon had and what BB had must be different. BB says her is myco triplex, which is a newer strain (previously, there were only a few identified strains that caused problems in the aquarium: m. marinum, m. fortuitum, and m. chelonae). I wonder then if there is yet another new strain that Coppermoon had and which causes our mystery disease; this new strain, if does exist, seems to prey on some sort of genetic weakness in blue bettas.

Darn, I really wish I had money to fund a study on this.
 
#136 ·
How can you know if a fish has it!?! All your fish looked healthy until some got sick right? I have a WalMart Betta, a PetSmart Betta, and some PetSmart inverts. Is any chain worse than others? Shouldd I give up on ever getting a larger sororiety tank? What about QT? Can you tell after x days that they have it?
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#137 ·
I just want to say thank you to BB as I was not aware of these type of problems and am actively working on my set up to prevent trouble. I also want to acknowledge and say how sorry I am to hear that BB lost her fish, that must have been beyond heartbreaking. I can only imagine. I am very sorry.
 
#140 ·
Bluewind, there is no way you can tell if your fish has this or not without cutting the fish open. Symptoms may or may not appear and if they do, the symptoms would be wasting away, ulcers, lethargy, and loss of appetite. However, these symptoms can mean any number of illnesses.

My best advice is to learn from BB and practice good fishkeeping, always keeping the water clean and warm, and enjoy your fish. Don't worry about this disease unless you have to.
 
#144 ·
Why couldn't you have the link? And how are you btw?
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#147 · (Edited)
I have another site. Purpose to have lots of betta info in one place. We are not to promote other sites here and can respect that. I can try to copy the article.. [long] but you would not get the links to scientific papers..
 
#148 ·
Maybe even a mutation brought on by the pressures we have caused :-(
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#149 ·
Here goes... it is too long so going to come in pieces...

What is Mycobacteria?


Mycobacteriosis is a disease caused by several bacterial species within the genus Mycobacterium. Some of these bacteria can cause serious diseases in humans. The species that cause Mycobacteriosis in fish are referred to as non-tuberculous bacteria. They do not tend to cause major disease in normal and healthy people.
Non-tuberculous mycobacteria are fairly common bacteria found in the environment. This means you do not have to have fish or other living tissue for them to survive. They have been found in drinking water supplies, swimming pools, coastal waters, and aquatic facilities.

Mycobacteriosis is of concern in fish for several reasons. First, it slowly destroys the fish as it causes a chronic wasting condition. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition but also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. At times you will see deep hemorrhagic skin lesions in addition to the more common superficial lesions. The mortility level is continuous low to moderate within the affected population. This can result in significant loss of fish.

The second reason is the disease is considered non-treatable once established in the fish host. Unfortunately, Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common. Though some species seem to be at greater risk than others, all fish are susceptible. The disease has been found in a broad range of fish and from freshwater to marine. Fish in the families Anabantidae (bettas and gouramis), Characidae (tetras), Cyprinidae (barbs, danios, koi and goldfish), and some members of the Cichlidae (including freshwater angelfish) may be more prone to the infection. This disease is also of concern in recirculating systems and once established can be difficult to eradicate. High organic loads, water quality characteristics common in intensive systems, and very crowded populations can all exacerbate the infection.



And if that is not enough, Mycobacterium infected fish do have the potential to cause disease in humans. Mycobacterial infections of fish are zoonotic, which means the organisms can cause disease in humans. Considering how prevelant the organisms are, these infections are relatively rare. Infections in people are usually associated with cleaning aquaria or from and injury resulting from contact with fish. The most common symptom in human patients is skin lesions that develop on the hands or extremities where broken skin may have come into contact with infective material. These lesions are often called “fish tank granuloma” or “fish handler’s disease.” Lesions in humans may develop from 3 weeks to 9 months after contact with infective material. Typically, mycobacterial lesions in humans are restricted to the extremities, particularly the skin though deep lesions into musculature and tendons have been reported. Rarely, systemic disease has occurred in immunocompromised individuals.
Environmental Conditions That Favor Mycos
Mycobacteria thrive under certain environmental conditions. They like warm water temperatures, low dissolved oxygen levels, acidic pH, high soluble zinc, high fulvic acid, and high humic acid. Investigators have found a much higher prevalence of mycobacteria in swamps as they have the desired environmental conditions of low levels of dissolved oxygen, low pH, high organic loads and warm water. Another investigation found a high amount of non-tuberculous mycobacteria associated with low salinity. All these conditions can be easily found in freshwater aquaculture systems. Trace amounts of certain minerals, particularly zinc and iron, have also been associated with greater numbers of mycobacteria in an environment. In addition to being present in infected fish, mycobacterial organisms also live in filter media and biofilms.

Although these mycobacteria are common in aquatic environments, it has been found that the disease in fish may be associated with certain strains rather than with the environmental conditions. Poor water conditions and husbandry, chronic stress and anything that impairs the immune system of the fish will increase the chance an infection will develop. Because some bacteria are more pathogenic than others it is critical to eliminate these specific stains from a fish room. It is the only way of stopping disease progression and death. Culling sick fish or completely destroying fish is usually recommended. Less pathogenic species of mycobacterium can be controlled by creating a less favorable environment for the organism
 
#151 ·
Symptoms
Mycobacteriosis is a progressive disease that may exist for some time before it is noticeable. Younger fish infected with mycobacteriosis often show no external signs because of how slow the disease progresses. The infection becomes more serious as fish age or become stressed.

Once the bacteria become noticeable it can take on many forms and be difficult to diagnose. Affected fish may become listless and lethargic.They may also refuse to eat becoming emaciated. Fish may also become sluggish and bloated presenting a “dropsy-like” condition with extreme abdominal distention and fluid accumulation. The bloating has been reported in fish infected with M. fortuitum.



The skin is often affected. Currently we are seeing the species M. Triplex in many fish. These fish have lesions that resemble columnaris and are usually located around the head. Notice the grey areas on the face ad gills of this blue betta. Some fishes may have skin ulcerations in the muscle that rupture the skin to the outside. Others may have pigment alterations, being brighter in color or duller. Other fish will develop fin and tail rot as well as scale loss.
If infection spreads to the skeletal system, the bacteria may cause deformities such as a bent or curved spine. Fish may also be stunted and small. Small fish are often found in systems protected from natural predators. Some affected fish may not develop sexually and lack secondary sexual characteristics. A bulging of the eye or eyes is also a fairly typical feature.

Internally the fish develop gray-white granulomas (nodules) in the liver, kidney, spleen, heart, and muscles. When the nodules develop in the organs, edema (excess fluid accumulation) may develop, as well as inflammation of the body cavity. Mycobacteriosis is a systemic disease that can affect virtually any organ system. (Noga et al.,1990).Eventually, infected fish succumb to the disease and die.

Diagnosis
If the fish have a history of progressive loss of condition, they do not respond to antimicrobial therapies and there are skin lesion, one can begin to look at Mycobacterium spp as suspect. The disease can show itself in so many different ways there is no typical presentation. Reproductive problems are often part of the history. Increased fish deaths and reproductive problems are often the first indicators that leads one to a diagnostic investigation of the fish. Though granulomas or lesions are classic with mycobacteriosis, they do not always develop. To make matter worse, Mycobacteria spp. have been isolated in tissue of a clinically normal fishthat shows no obvious disease or pathology.

Currently, there are no non-lethal tests to determine if fish have mycobacterial diseases. That means the only way to know for sure, is to submit them to a lab to get conformation. Once the Mycobacterium is found there are still more tests needed to determine the species of bacteria affecting the fish. If you have having multiple symptoms and they will not go away, it is wise to assume your fish have the mycobacteria and take appropriate action to reduce your losses and eradicate if from your fish room.

Mycobacterial infections of any fish should be considered non-treatable. There are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, but individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may temporarily disappear but they often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued. And again, the antibiotics do not eliminate the disease.
 
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