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Mycobacteria

60K views 213 replies 39 participants last post by  FishTankExpert 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
In light of the recent posts, and all the misinformation on the web and floating around in this forum, let me set a few records straight.

Mycos is nothing to be considered lightly. I have been in regular conversation with fish pathologists for almost a year now, and it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish. You need to read the article I have created at the link below, and take it very serious, as it is based on the research of people that look at mycos for a living:



I have friends that have dealt or are dealing with this. FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on. I finally contacted a fish pathologist and sent THIRTY fish representing every tank or system I had. The ones with lesions tested positive for mycos right off the lesions they presented.

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos. Fish from 30 days to 9 months of age. It was recommended I send more fish to the leading researcher in mycobacteria here in the US to determine the strain. They were unable to grow the bacteria to determine what strain I was dealing with and was told that is not unusual for many mycos strains. It took DNA to determine what I had. My results and currently what many betta breeders are dealing with is M. Triplex. Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people.

If you read the article I posted you will see there are different types of mycos. Some move fast and others a bit slower. But the end result is THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. Some mycos can be managed as there is no way to completely eradicate it. But you destroy the pathogenic ones and manage water conditions to reduce affect of the others.

I was told Lysol will kill it. Not knowing there were different Lysols I ran a major heavy solution through my barracks for TWO WEEKS. I drained that down, ran water through it a few days, drained it down and ran a super concentrated bleach solution through another TWO WEEKS. I brought the system back online and put some of my most promising fish in the barracks and EACH ONE CAME DOWN WITH THE DISEASE AGAIN! The ones still in the tank never got it. So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious.

So once again I have had to destroy some absolutely beautiful fish. More discussion with the pathologists and we found I did not use a proper cleaner. I sure as heck do now. EVERYTHING.., nets, hoses, tanks, lights water test vials.. EVERYTHING gets hit with the anti TB chemical after EVERY use. My trash cans for water are broken down and sprayed every few weeks. Even my hands between tanks. I set a timer as there has to be 5 minutes contact time. I refuse to destroy any more fish. I have clean stock now and I am going to keep it that way.

In the meantime. My recommendations.. for all it is worth..

Get a hold of a local vet or go online and get something that will kill TB. The article I linked to has a link to chemicals that will kill mycobacteria. Treat EVERYTHING in your fish room no matter how small. And treat any tank with it when you break it down... sick fish or not. Keep the stuff on hand and act like it is ever present to get a foothold in your fish room. Practice good bio-security and you should prevent it or get rid of it. If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.
 
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#51 ·
What you should get from this thread is use care when getting new fish. If your fish have a disease that is very resistant to meds, take a hard look at the fact you may have mycos. There is a PROPER way to get rid of it. And for those want to not get it is is not a bad idea to still have an anti TB spray to clean stuff once in a while.

No need to panic. Yes.. you see alot of it around. Just know some facts and you can prevent it or if you decide you might have it.. you can rest knowing you can eliminate it with the proper procedures. There is no more struggling with mystery unknowns you cant get rid of. When all other options fail.. look closer at this one.

That's all...
 
#52 ·
OK. I am going to break this down, and hopefully end the mass hysteria that seems to be going on. First, I would like to say, I am a Medical Technologist. I am currently a laboratory supervisor with many years of Laboratory experience. I am not a self proclaimed basement breeding fish expert.

99% of fish have some form of pathogen, whether it be Ich, Myco, or other.

Most fish is a well kept aquarium do not get sick. Healthy immune systems fight off illness. Think of this in terms of a chemo patient. They can died from the common cold because they're immune system is weak and stressed. Most healthy people shrug off the common cold.

I am a woman. I have yeast. Doesn't mean I have a yeast infection. Oh wait, I also have staph on my skin. Doesnt mean I have a staph infection. Oh and that yogurt you are eating? Oh that has bacteria in it too. Lactobacillus, which is also known as normal vaginal flora. Oh yes, it is. Think about it.

Everyone and everything has a bacterial subsystem living within them, each one keeping another in check. It is all part of the immune system. When one part gets compromised, defenses fail and you end up diseased, This goes the same for any organism, whether a mammal or fish.

HEALTHY TANKS EQUAL HEALTHY FISH. IF YOU ARE CONCERNED, QUARANTINE. TAKE CARE OF YOUR TANK.
 
#58 ·
I agree with you 100% But exposure to this strain will take a fish down., Happy and healthy will not make the fish able to resist this. There is no immunity once this enters the fish. It will weaken the fish and eventually kill it. My fish were in perfect health until exposed to this. And I dare say others I know who have dealt with this also have perfectly healthy systems until exposed. Sure.. take care of your tanks. But make sure you are not exposed too. I had UV and that just slowed the progression. I put perfectly happy and healthy fish back in my barracks and fish once again showed symptoms. It had not been eradicated properly from the system itself. did not even need a sick fish this time. I'm sure exposing you to something like the plague will quickly make even you not feel too good. Depends on what you are exposed to.
 
#56 ·
Twolovers, you have a very good point and I think it bears looking at. It's a logical assumption in any case that the larger the numbers, the higher the statistics.

Also, one thing I learned in college pyschology is statistics can ALWAYS be skewed to serve one's purposes and to not take numbers just by themselves but to seek further information.
 
#60 ·
Basement Bettas... Out of curiousity, did you QT the fish that introduced this to your tanks? Did you buy him/her from a store or a breeder? If you did QT, how long? What were the first symptoms? Most alarming?
I'm just curious because I want to know how long to QT any new fish and what exactly to look for and such...
 
#67 ·
Got him from a US breeder. QT for like 60 days. Decided was tired of cleaning the beanie and put him in my barracks. Then he got a bit off.. eventually bloated and died. It happens. so removed him and put another fish in that cell. About 2 more fish deaths IN THAT CELL made me think something not right. And now the entire row showing symptoms. Was not long after the entire system showed signs. Because I just went from one barrack to the next or next tank without disinfection.. I quickly exposed my entire fish room. In 2 months time I had every fish showing symptoms. I searched out a phd, asked some questions and he told me to send fish. He had wanted to look at the columnaris that was so resistant. It took 5 months from getting the fish to diagnosis. And I was lucky enough I was allowed to send fish to be tested. And they were very patient with answering all my questions and referring me to other scientific papers to read. Many people have had this in their fish room over a year and just never could shake it. Now that we know what it is it is being dealt with. And we are getting rid of it.
 
#63 ·
Okay.. think this is my last post on this topic for now...
Mycobacterium has been around for years on end. When I joined this hobby, one of the first things on disease I read was "mycobacterium is found in almost every aquarium fish in some number." We've known this for a long time (okay, shush, I haven't been fish keeping that long :p).

I would honestly, think that if we were having some sort of bacterial epidemic here, that some magazine like Amazonas or Practical Fish Keeping would have commented on it. They haven't, no one seems too worried about this to me.
This has been around for so many years (gosh, some of those paper's sources are from the 90's- we do realize that's over a decade right?) and the world hasn't ended, fish still live in tanks, they will keep living in tanks. Die outs here and there is part of the hobby and happens when you aren't careful with your fish.
 
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#78 ·
It is not an epidemic. It is something many of us that breed a lot of bettas have been recently exposed to. And I am seeing it in too many fish offered for sale at the local level. And I see too many posts here with stuff I don't like. So all this post if for is a warning,. It is out there., in the betta community. Breeders to the local shops. Watch your fish. Keep tanks as clean and healthy as possible. Treat for common disease. And if you face something that just will not go away.. look seriously at the possibility of this being the cause. And take the right steps to be free of it rather than have it nagging in the back ground. It can totally destroy the joy in keeping fish.
 
#65 ·
That is true. Every expert who has written books/magazine articles on fish diseases agree that the only way to positively know a fish has myco is to do testing, whether it's a tissue sample or an autopsy. And saying you recognize the signs isn't cutting it because every expert also agrees that there are many diseases that mimic each other, hence the need for lab testing.
 
#80 ·
no. If you do not introduce it with another fish.
 
#77 ·
I think understanding a well written scientific paper is nearly impossible for anyone without a degree. doctorate or phd in the subject.

There are many things in life we have to live with and fish being sick is one of them, if science had a cure for everything (within reason), do you not think something would have been said about it? There are countless sites on the web about cancer saying it has been cured for years and hasnt been released to the public because of the drugs companies and the fact they could lose billions, losing billions over having health care costs explode over the roof for cancer treatment patients...weigh up the argument.

There have been some very valid points here and yes there is a disease going around that is becoming more widespread, no more than any other potential disease "we" have to deal with in this world we call home. MRSA, simple infection in its earliest form, became very widespread due to the overuse of antibiotics.

Point being, yes this disease is carried by most fish, will something trigger it, cannot be 100% sure, all we can do is care for our fish as best as we can.
Truth is, you happened to come on a situation that caused your fish to perish, sorry for this loss, chances though are yes increasing on others getting it as it is becoming more widespread...look at it another way though, we as humans removed the fish from their habitat for our personal enjoyment...should we have done that...no not really...

Enough of my rant...it will effect some more than others until a full blown outbreak occurs worldwide there is no cause for alarm in keeping our fish.
 
#87 ·
She got it from the same breeder I did. And she did not want to face the mycos when my diagnosis came back. I finally got her to send some fish and her diagnosis was not a surprise.. same symptoms. Got fish from same person.. at same time. And it wiped her out too. There are a few of us recovering from this. Everyone just though some crud resistant to drugs. We should have acted faster.
 
#85 ·
When I sought out a researcher he located a local vet. He told me to see them and let him know what they told me. They could not even do a skin scrape and charged me $200. When I relayed that and the fact they wanted $900 he said to send fish to him. I got the initial result from their skin scraping. Then the did the finer testing and again said all fish had it all through the body,, in all organs. And it was recommended I talk to the leading researcher in the field to identify the strain as my symptoms were not lining up with what is out there on TB,. So he sent the referral to Dr Whipps and more fish were sent. There were some oddities like chin bumps that just were not typical presentations. It took a bit, but we finally, with dna, identified the strain. But I had already had the mycos diagnoses and was taking steps to get rid of it. When it returned we discovered the wrong chemical was used. Had I used the correct one I would not have had this last bunch with it again. I did not pay anyting but shipping for this.

It is not something they will do for anybody. With 500-1000 fish at any given time, I was almost like a research facility or commercial breeder. I am very thankful for their time and it has allowed me to tell others we have a serious problem. So it is now addressed and we are moving forward.. clean.

But the concern is with what I saw in local shops. One must use care when buying bettas as many come from the same facility. And I doubt they will destroy stock and decontaminate for bettas.
 
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#84 ·
The link to my article with the references was deleted. No outside links I'm told. But I hope this one will be allowed. It took some searching to find products that will kill this stuff. My first attempt was not a good one. If it needs deleted.. sorry, just remove the link. But the EPA.gov site is where you need to go and dig if deleted.

These are products that will kill mycos. I'd recommend seeing your local vet or googling some of these online if you want to have a heavy duty disinfectant. Even if you just have an outbreak of velvet.. if you break down a tank, it is not a bad idea to hit it with something like this. And if you have the flu in your house you can use it on your stuff too. To kill mycos required the second highest kill level I think I remember reading. It will kill HIV virus.. that is how strong we are talking.

I let mine stand the 5 minutes wet it recommends then rinse with water. THen everything gets a good bleach dip to remove traces of the first spray.. then another good rinse and you are ready to go.

http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/list_b_tuberculocide.pdf
 
#86 ·
Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --
Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.

Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
Bleach in a 1-10 solution is hospital grade and is proven to kill HIV Hepatitis, TB, etc as well.

Another good one is Barbicide, commonly available at most Sally's beauty supply or online and is a great disinfectant to use. It'll kill HIV, TB, Hepatitis, etc. We use it as cosmetologists (the blue stuff for our shears), as we are required to use Hospital grade disinfectants. 10 minutes, surface soaked enough to stay wet the entire 10 minute duration.

Read manufacturer directions and it will tell you how long to leave it on and if you leave it less than that, you arent killing what you think you are!


EDIT:: Sorry, I didnt look at the link before I wrote this.
Everything still holds true, but the list definitely shows more options.
 
#88 ·
Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --
Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.

Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
Bleach in a 1-10 solution is hospital grade and is proven to kill HIV Hepatitis, TB, etc as well.

Another good one is Barbicide, commonly available at most Sally's beauty supply or online and is a great disinfectant to use. It'll kill HIV, TB, Hepatitis, etc. We use it as cosmetologists (the blue stuff for our shears), as we are required to use Hospital grade disinfectants. 10 minutes, surface soaked enough to stay wet the entire 10 minute duration.

Read manufacturer directions and it will tell you how long to leave it on and if you leave it less than that, you arent killing what you think you are!
Got to use a REAL high concentration for a long time. Remember I had it in my barracks running for TWO WEEKS and it still came back. Terminator triplex.. Isn't the exposure to bleach like an hour? And I'm going to check out sallys.. though I have a good product now.
 
#91 ·
The origin.. no. And the source is no concern. We have identified the mystery bug, and we have the knowledge to get rid of it. And we have notified who we needed to.

If you let a tank air dry and sit a month or more, you destroy the biofilm and that will also kill it off. it is the biofilms that make this so tough to get rid of. Most research says to use bleach first to break down the biofilms then hit with something MADE to kill the TB.

If you buy local bettas, pick up lots of containers and look for patches of lesions around the head. That is the most common symptom. And if you see it on even one.. do NOT buy fish. Can guarantee they have been exposed at the shop with water changes or the holding facility they came from. Really not worth it...
 
#92 · (Edited)
EDIT:::: I meant to say Barbicide PLUS. PLus is the tuberculocidal grade of barbicide.

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Barbicide-Plus/SBS-585064,default,pd.html << link for barbicide plus at sally's so you know what to look for

--This is kind of a long story --- BUT
It comes in a smaller form for anyone with only a few fish and interested in trying it. Its a 2 ounce (i believe) bottle with an empty spray bottle packaged with it. They do this because they dont have another license to sell it as a spray, only as an immersing solution. Anyways, you add half the bottle of barbicide to the spray bottle, the rest water, and you can spray your tank walls with it, and its much easier to use that way.
 
#95 ·
COOL! Thanks for the link and info. I have not live anyplace in the last 30 years that did not have a sallys. So people should be able to get this type of product easily. Thanks again.
 
#93 · (Edited)


This is what you look for. The grey fuzz looking stuff that makes you think columnaris. And the raising of the scale as more are setting in.

and this is MY photo edited for illustration..
 
#94 ·
look past the first two arrows.. past the more gray area.. and you will see a fainter patch before you see those other arrows with the raised scales. From nose to almost where the blue starts is an infected area. It will become more like the more grey areas towards the front in time. If the internal organs do not fail first.
 
#96 ·
This thread really got my attention and concerned me. After I calmed down I realized its a very helpful thread as it made me evaluate the bio safety of my set up. I have reorganized to prevent illness to myself and hopefully my fish. I read the list of things that can kill the bacteria and many of those things are readily available. That was a relief.

This thread helped me cause now I am aware of potential problems and can take steps to prevent them. But yes, it did also scare me :)
 
#97 ·
Then the thread did it's job. No need to be freaked out.. but know there can be a problem. I wish some one had presented the possibility of such a thing to me. Some fear is a good thing.. lol

If you have any concerns that are not addressed.. just pm me and I'll discuss private.
 
#98 ·
Can I ask something ?

My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
His ski become red, and his skin was broken.

What do you think ?
Was that Micobacteria ?
 
#101 ·
What medication did you use to treat fin rot? Medications, as a whole, can be very hard on fish due to their small/fragile organs. It's very easy to overdose on the medications which could also cause a lot of health problems.

It seems you have used numerous medications on the fish.. why I am curious as to what you did for the fin rot.

Pineconing happens from all different ailments, normally it happens once internal organs start to fail.. which could of happened due to medications being used.. even using AQ salt for certain problems such as SBD can make things worse and deadly.

He may of had an internal bacteria infection (not what is being discussed), or a bad reaction to the medications being used on him..
 
#100 · (Edited)
Oh wow... I mean, serious? This thread was intended to inform, not create hysteria or scare people from buying fish. This had been taken way out of context, and some (such as Finn) would not of freaked out if others didn't jump the bandwagon and go on the attack instead of discussing something that is serious.

We're not talking about how all bettas have this and how rare it happens, etc.. what BB is trying to say is that there is a strong strain that has recently surfaced and is going on the attack big time as of late.

That's it. A warning. "Hey, this strain of this serious bacteria has been popping up lately in mass amounts more than normal, so take precautions when you get new fish". And she stated her troubles with it.

How in the world it got into a debate, why people would attack, is beyond me. People who are out there buying sick fish because they want to "rescue" a betta need this warning. It's crazy to go out and buy a sick fish, in my opinion. I personally have too much time and money placed into my couple dozen bettas that are for breeding to not listen to people who have had to deal with this. If you have one fish, then there is no reason to panic.. if you have just a few fish there is no reason to panic. But the lesson still stands - take care when you purchase sick fish. Or don't risk the health of your current fish (regardless of the numbers) and just don't buy a sick fish. Simple as that.

To attack and say this thread is creating hysteria, etc is just silly.. it wasn't until someone/s went on the attack did someone "freak out" about it. It's the people who walk around the crowd whispering in the ears of the people saying "Oh hey, this person is speaking of the devil! That person knows something we don't and is warning us of doom! Witch! Witch! Watch your children run and scream in fear because this is witchcraft!", those people whispering in the ears are what creates hysteria. Someone giving vital information and warning that a certain strain has become troublesome as of late is nothing to argue against. If specialists are saying that this strain has popped up and is being very aggressive recently then that is what is happening, has nothing to do with whether or not these fish carry a different strain of it all the time. Not talking about that. Talking about this particular strain and how it's going on the attack right now wide spread. That's it.
You have had your fish for years and it's been healthy, and you don't plan on buying any new fish any time soon.. then why worry? This is just to let people know to be careful with new fish that has been taken way out of context/hand.

I mean, seriously.. to argue because someone is warning of what is happening in the betta trade right now is not helping anyone.

On a side note - I need to talk to a breeder friend of mine, and get with you BB (will do it on B.Source), as your picture is exactly what one of mine I got from a breeder looked like before I put him down yesterday.. 20 years of raising fish, one case of Ich, no other disease has affected any of my fish, deaths only from old age and I just had exactly what that picture shows happen to an import that has been passed around to a few breeders before he came to me.. those visual symptoms are what he had, no other symptom was noticed other then lethargy, ruled out dropsy (may not of had a sick fish, but spent the better part of 2 years researching illnesses in bettas and what my guy had was new to me). So in fact if this strain is as active as it is showing to be, and if people are being warned about it (talking about specialists warning) then this is of high concern to people who breed/show fish. I can't say for sure this guy has it, and I'm not going to freak out about it. But because of this I will be taking precautions, warn the breeders who have had this particular fish and see if I lose another. If I lose another fish the same way then I will take the steps to get it tested, etc and go from there. No one should freak out about a warning. I have a reason to and I'm not.. have just purchased 3 more imports that should be here today or tomorrow, I will take extra precautions.. no big deal. And it should be a concern to anyone who is actively purchasing fish, sick fish.

I wish I didn't get rid of the body yesterday.. I would of liked to of gotten him tested because if he has it then there are a couple great breeders that I need to warn.

THANK YOU BB, even if people are jumping on the bandwagon of trying to argue for the sake of arguing, the warning you gave is a very good one and should be appreciated.

Sorry, may not of been the best to jump in, but I just saw no reason for the assault on BB and her post.
Not about not buying fish.. it's about taking precautions when introducing new fish.. being a little scared is fine, as it gets you to thinking about being careful, etc and that is a good thing. Please, can we just stop attacking the messenger here, and instead discuss ways to help reduce the risk of this becoming even more wide spread?
 
#102 ·
The problem with mycobacteria the pictures of it are nasty to look at.

There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.

Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with.

The betta in this photo is still fine, I've been observing it for over a week now. It's being kept floating in a cup inside a 80 degree tank.

I would estimate this particular betta fish is about 1 year old now.



*Sorry the pictures aren't clearer. But thought I would post them to give everyone a slightly better photo to help prevent a misdiagnosis.

Feel free to save a copy of the photo if you want for future reference.





http://imageshack.us/a/img254/8700/jan82013notations.jpg
 
#106 ·
There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.

Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with.

The betta in this photo is still fine, I've been observing it for over a week now. It's being kept floating in a cup inside a 80 degree tank.

I would estimate this particular betta fish is about 1 year old now.



*Sorry the pictures aren't clearer. But thought I would post them to give everyone a slightly better photo to help prevent a misdiagnosis.

Feel free to save a copy of the photo if you want for future reference.





http://imageshack.us/a/img254/8700/jan82013notations.jpg
I would be concerned about this fish. Use good bio-security and get a good disinfectant. If he is your only fish.. he may live a while. Depends on how fast it attacks the internal organs and they fail. So if your only fish you can just ride it out and then nuke everything with the proper cleaner once he passes. Get rid of gravel and filter. If you have other fish.. avoid cross contamination as you watch him, if he declines you may want to put him down. And be careful of yourself .. no open cuts in the water. I run my tank water down the drain.. so my drains and the counter get sprayed every night.
 
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