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Mycobacteria

This is a discussion on Mycobacteria within the Betta Fish Articles forums, part of the Articles category; --> Originally Posted by finnfinnfriend I've heard that in laboratories they have had litters without it by killing the mother before births. Then the litter ...

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Old 01-17-2013, 11:59 PM   #141
 
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Originally Posted by finnfinnfriend View Post
I've heard that in laboratories they have had litters without it by killing the mother before births. Then the litter has to be in a sterile invironment and never touch anything that another rat has ever touched. /:
Yeah progress! It's almost like working with a child when there is maternal AIDS or HIV present. They can't cure the mother, but they can give her prenatal meds and perform a c-section to keep the child from getting the virus and then have certain criteria that must be followed after to keep the baby safe (like no breastfeeding). If it can be done with humans and has a good track record, then they should be able to eventually come up with something to help pet rats have a long and healthy life
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:13 AM   #142
 
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Yeah progress! It's almost like working with a child when there is maternal AIDS or HIV present. They can't cure the mother, but they can give her prenatal meds and perform a c-section to keep the child from getting the virus and then have certain criteria that must be followed after to keep the baby safe (like no breastfeeding). If it can be done with humans and has a good track record, then they should be able to eventually come up with something to help pet rats have a long and healthy life
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Yeah well I hope they apply these experiments and make domestic rats healthier, that would be great! If it ever is successful though, it will take a very long time to get to that point.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:02 AM   #143
 
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Originally Posted by AyalaCookiejar View Post
I was thinking this same thing. Yes, there were some harsh words in there... Some I did find offensive... But I can see why. I have five bettas, and I would be absolutely devastated if this happened to them, probably beyond mad (at no one in particular but it would help to have an outlet) and also, out a lot of money. This being said, I have four tanks and one is still empty. I have no doubt it my mind that the amount this costed her far exceeded the entire amount of money I've spent on my fish in my lifetime (and its quite a bit, especially considering that my fish are only pets and I do not breed). It seriously scares the life out of me to think what would happen if this got into my fish tanks, but it is a good warning, and intended to help people. I'm sure anyone who lost that many fish in one day would act the same way... And of course she would be angry with others for not trying to get rid of this mycobacteria because she doesn't want it to end up back in any of her tanks.



That being said... I'm really confused about this, now. Considering the fact that all this scientific language does nothing but confuse me, it needs to be kind of "dumbed down" for me to understand it. I've seen a lot of scary symptoms here and also scary outcomes of this mycobacteria crud, but I also understand that there are different strains. It can live in a fish for weeks, months.. Even years, correct? Are there differences between the life spans of the fish? I'm understanding that healthy fish can live with certain strains but other strains will kill any fish it touches, correct? How much do we really know about each specific strain? Which are more dangerous? Which kill faster? Are the symptoms the same for all of them?

I guess what I would like to see is maybe a chart of some sort that kind of explains what we know about the specific strains, how long they take to kill a fish, symptoms, etc... Because this is just all over the place and I'm more confused than I was to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying, in one sentence, is that I get the point of the thread to spread awareness but with the scattered information, its very difficult for me to pinpoint what exactly I'm supposed to be aware of because I feel like this thread is not solely focused on one thing...
The link to my original article was removed. It discusses the disease at length and gives links to scientific papers. Just got an over view here...

The mods would have to allow the link. Or contact me direct for more info
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:11 AM   #144
 
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Why couldn't you have the link? And how are you btw?
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:14 AM   #145
 
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I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
So yea, sure, most fish have M.
But cases of MT or MM still seem uncommon..

Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
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This is a very pathogenic strain that is really showing its ugly head. And you should be concerned. My local pet shop fish come from Seagrest. Most of you should know that name.. and their fish are coming IN to the shops with the mycos lesions on their faces. And HOW BIG is this company? And how long do you think they have bettas? I'm sure they just toss dead fish. They do not have systems like Z-fish used for research where a population COULD be wiped out. A seller like them just turns them over. They come in, go into contaminated containers for holding, are rebagged by people not practicing bio-security.. and it shows up at the LFS. Some one dumps bettas in the cups, moves on and sticks their hands in a tank.. and now we have this in another state and other tanks. And because of terminology used in our discussion it may be a newer strain.

There is reason for concern.. not hysteria. It is not an old variety but something a bit newer.. and it is showing up in a lot of places.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:18 AM   #146
 
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Originally Posted by Sakura8 View Post
*hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old*

What I'm beginning to find interesting is that when I compare the symptoms that Coppermoon describes and what BB is describing, they are different. Copper's symptoms mirror the "mystery disease" while BB's are more along the lines of what we typically think of when we think of mycobacteria: slower-moving, wasting, ulcers and sores. This makes me think that the strain of myco that Coppermoon had and what BB had must be different. BB says her is myco triplex, which is a newer strain (previously, there were only a few identified strains that caused problems in the aquarium: m. marinum, m. fortuitum, and m. chelonae). I wonder then if there is yet another new strain that Coppermoon had and which causes our mystery disease; this new strain, if does exist, seems to prey on some sort of genetic weakness in blue bettas.

Darn, I really wish I had money to fund a study on this.
We got our fish from the same breeder.. and we had same symptoms. The columnaris looking stuff. She had more of the fin rot than I did.. but I still had it. I just never kept that bunch around long as I found the fins were quickly eaten to the flesh.. so destroyed those quick. Kept thinking I could "cure" the columnaris.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:21 AM   #147
 
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Why couldn't you have the link? And how are you btw?
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I have another site. Purpose to have lots of betta info in one place. We are not to promote other sites here and can respect that. I can try to copy the article.. [long] but you would not get the links to scientific papers..

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Old 01-18-2013, 01:21 AM   #148
 
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Maybe even a mutation brought on by the pressures we have caused
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:24 AM   #149
 
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Here goes... it is too long so going to come in pieces...

What is Mycobacteria?


Mycobacteriosis is a disease caused by several bacterial species within the genus Mycobacterium. Some of these bacteria can cause serious diseases in humans. The species that cause Mycobacteriosis in fish are referred to as non-tuberculous bacteria. They do not tend to cause major disease in normal and healthy people.
Non-tuberculous mycobacteria are fairly common bacteria found in the environment. This means you do not have to have fish or other living tissue for them to survive. They have been found in drinking water supplies, swimming pools, coastal waters, and aquatic facilities.

Mycobacteriosis is of concern in fish for several reasons. First, it slowly destroys the fish as it causes a chronic wasting condition. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition but also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. At times you will see deep hemorrhagic skin lesions in addition to the more common superficial lesions. The mortility level is continuous low to moderate within the affected population. This can result in significant loss of fish.

The second reason is the disease is considered non-treatable once established in the fish host. Unfortunately, Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common. Though some species seem to be at greater risk than others, all fish are susceptible. The disease has been found in a broad range of fish and from freshwater to marine. Fish in the families Anabantidae (bettas and gouramis), Characidae (tetras), Cyprinidae (barbs, danios, koi and goldfish), and some members of the Cichlidae (including freshwater angelfish) may be more prone to the infection. This disease is also of concern in recirculating systems and once established can be difficult to eradicate. High organic loads, water quality characteristics common in intensive systems, and very crowded populations can all exacerbate the infection.



And if that is not enough, Mycobacterium infected fish do have the potential to cause disease in humans. Mycobacterial infections of fish are zoonotic, which means the organisms can cause disease in humans. Considering how prevelant the organisms are, these infections are relatively rare. Infections in people are usually associated with cleaning aquaria or from and injury resulting from contact with fish. The most common symptom in human patients is skin lesions that develop on the hands or extremities where broken skin may have come into contact with infective material. These lesions are often called “fish tank granuloma” or “fish handler’s disease.” Lesions in humans may develop from 3 weeks to 9 months after contact with infective material. Typically, mycobacterial lesions in humans are restricted to the extremities, particularly the skin though deep lesions into musculature and tendons have been reported. Rarely, systemic disease has occurred in immunocompromised individuals.
Environmental Conditions That Favor Mycos
Mycobacteria thrive under certain environmental conditions. They like warm water temperatures, low dissolved oxygen levels, acidic pH, high soluble zinc, high fulvic acid, and high humic acid. Investigators have found a much higher prevalence of mycobacteria in swamps as they have the desired environmental conditions of low levels of dissolved oxygen, low pH, high organic loads and warm water. Another investigation found a high amount of non-tuberculous mycobacteria associated with low salinity. All these conditions can be easily found in freshwater aquaculture systems. Trace amounts of certain minerals, particularly zinc and iron, have also been associated with greater numbers of mycobacteria in an environment. In addition to being present in infected fish, mycobacterial organisms also live in filter media and biofilms.

Although these mycobacteria are common in aquatic environments, it has been found that the disease in fish may be associated with certain strains rather than with the environmental conditions. Poor water conditions and husbandry, chronic stress and anything that impairs the immune system of the fish will increase the chance an infection will develop. Because some bacteria are more pathogenic than others it is critical to eliminate these specific stains from a fish room. It is the only way of stopping disease progression and death. Culling sick fish or completely destroying fish is usually recommended. Less pathogenic species of mycobacterium can be controlled by creating a less favorable environment for the organism
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:24 AM   #150
 
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueFishlets View Post
TB is tuberculosis. Its scientific name is Mycobacterium tuberculosis (MTB).

Fish do not get this particular disease, but they CAN get other types of Mycobacterial diseases. Therefore, a lot of people call it "Fish TB," but it's not really TB.

Taking care of your fish is important. Per the article Mycobacterial Infections of Fish, "The disease is most often seen in animals reared under suboptimal conditions, including those that may be stressed or immunocompromised."

This means that even if your fish has been exposed, keeping it in 'good conditions' (good water, good food, etc), you can help it to stay healthy.

Actually, I think this may be why a possible reason why it takes good breeders so long to realize their fish have it.... Good breeders keep their fish in good conditions. The result is that it's not readily apparent that their fish have been exposed....
I see TB means.
After that, I am reading the article.
Thank you a lot !
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