Warpig's 180 Build PFirst draft of stocking list ideas please help
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Warpig's 180 Build PFirst draft of stocking list ideas please help

This is a discussion on Warpig's 180 Build PFirst draft of stocking list ideas please help within the Beginner Saltwater Aquariums forums, part of the Saltwater Fish and Coral Reef Tanks category; --> Been going through Pasfurs "Marine fish compatibility, creating a stocking list" posting trying to formulate a plan. Let me start by thanking him for ...

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Warpig's 180 Build PFirst draft of stocking list ideas please help
Old 11-28-2010, 04:12 AM   #1
 
Warpig's 180 Build PFirst draft of stocking list ideas please help

Been going through Pasfurs "Marine fish compatibility, creating a stocking list" posting trying to formulate a plan. Let me start by thanking him for writing it.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/s...ng-list-38579/
Being a complete newb, I found that thread very helpful and a good place for advice on how to come up with a list. My back story so far...I recently purchased a complete used 180G tank with a handful of fish and nearly everything I would need to get going. Most of the fish included I eventually wanted to include in my tank so I looked at it as an added bonus. I am new to this and will surely have some difficulty with all the different dynamics when it comes to applying specific fish dynamics to "my" list of desired tankmates. I hope I understood enough to not get flamed too much here but I really would appreciate constructive feedback on my ideas, whether good or bad.

I have spent the last 10 months doing tons of reading and research before finally buying this setup but I am still VERY green to all this. I am also suffering from a bit of information overload at this point. I purchased my tank and have been taking my time in getting it running. I have my build thread here.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/s...r-build-55467/
My tank has been up and the water and included live rock have been together in the tank for about three weeks circulating. My tank appears to be in the middle of a diatom bloom and the corraline algae is starting to show on some of my rocks but there are currently no fish in the tank as I am waiting for my
ammonia (.25ppm) and nitrate (20ppm) to drop. I am looking to get the clean up crew in there soon, another list I will need help with, but am trying to put together my stocking list as it will be time for that soon I hope as well. The fish that were included with my used setup are as follows. 1 Purple Tang (Zebrasoma Xanthurum). 2 Regal Tangs (Paracanthurus Hepatus). 1 Tomato Clown (Amphiprion Frenatus). 1 Foxface Rabbitfish (Siganus vulpinus). 1 Diamond Watchman Goby/Orange Spotted Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea Puellaris). The day I took posession of the tank and fish two months ago my uncle and I put all the livestock into an established (5+ years) 210 gallon tank my uncle recently cleared of fish. They have been doing great over there. All of the above fish got along great in my tank (pre purchase) as well as now in my uncle's 210. I do however want to add more fish. So unless this is not a good idea for some reason I am treating all my fish as new fish that I will include into the stocking order as I understand it should be, or as anyone here wishes to correct me on due to my lack of full understanding/knowledge of fish behavior.

Reading pasfur's thread and taking the advice of stocking in group order A/B/C I will plan on putting the A group in first. I dont have many fish that I own or want on the group A list but here are the ones I have and want. unless there is a reason not to i will pprobably Q them and add them at the same time as
it is a big tank.

Here is the A group. 1 1/2-2 units of fish per guidelines of up to 18 units for a 180G

Diamond Watchman Goby/Orange Spotted Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea Puellaris)(a) (if we can find him currently he is on hiatus somewhere)
Yellow Headed Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea Strigata)(a)
Royal Gramma (Gramma Loreto)(a)

I question the adding of two different species of Valenciennea's but due to tank size and what I have read about them I hope this will not be a problem. From there I will be looking to add from the B group. I have a few questions here... can I put three seperate species of Centropyge Angels into a 180G? I
dont need to, but these are the fish I like... My preferences are for the Flame Angel then Lemon Peel then the Bi Color. I am considering the lemon peel because I wanted a yellow tang and have another potential problem with that later on... The yellow tail damsels, general consensus is damsels are mean but I also read that yellow tails are more mellow and some more reading revealed they are even less agressive in groups so I was thinking of adding three to five of those. If they will be a problem I will not add them. However, if the tank is big enough and they wont terrorize all the other fish I'd like to add them because I like them. I'm thinking add the damsels and then later add the Angels at the same time.

Yellow Tail Blue Damsel (Chrysiptera Parasema) (b) (3/5)
Flame Angel (Centropyge loricula)(b)
Bi Color Angel (Centropyge bicolor)(b)
Lemonpeel Angel (Centropyge flavissimus)(b)

This leaves me with one of my big dilema's. The tank came with a Tomato Clown but I want a Maroon clown more than I want the Tomato. What are the chances I can add them both in a 180 and if so add them at the same time? or with the tomato first because it seems from reading as if the tomato would be marginally more tolerant of the maroon being added than the maroon would be of the tomato being added. Ultimately If I have to I will find a new home for the tomato in favor of the maroon I want. Any advice here?

Tomato Clown (Amphiprion Frenatus)(b)
Maroon clown (Premnas Biaculeatus)(b)

If I understand pasfur's concept here this would be 6 units of fish if I get them all to live peacefully together. leaving me 10 0f 18 units to go.

This brings me to the C group. I would add the foxface first, then the two Regals together. This leaves me with my next dilema, two Zebrasoma's, A beautiful purple tang I already own, and I have always wanted a yellow tang. I'm thinking if the two Zebrasoma's wont work together (can I add them at the same time) I have read conflicting info on them. Some say they will not tolerate each other some say add them at the same time. I am willing to avoid this issue and scrap the yellow tang idea in favor of the lemon peel I mentioned earlier if the two zebrasoma's is a really bad idea. Is three dwarf angels a better idea? I am too green to know all of this and could use some guidance. Lastly, I might like to add a Scribble Angel as my last fish. Realize this will all take a long time for me to accomplish if it's doable at all. I will be learning as I go of course.

Foxface Rabbitfish (Siganus vulpinus)(c)
Regal Tang (Paracanthurus Hepatus)(c)(2)
Purple Tang (Zebrasoma Xanthurum)(c)
Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma Flavescens)(c)
Scribble Angel (Chaetodontoplus dubolayi)(c)

If all this is possible and I realize it's probably not this would be an additional 10 units of fish and I'd be at the limit based on Pasfur's article. I'm sure there are allot of things I dont have the knowledge to think of at this time about my potential stocking list. I also would eventually LOVE to have a copper band and a mandarin or two but am nowhere near the experience level or tank maturity I need to consider them at all at this point due to their feeding issues. Will I be ready by the time I get down what will remain of this list? who knows. If I am how could they fit in? I'm sure there are a bunch of angles I have missed on this behavior dynamics amongst the fishlife due to my being green in this hobby and am hoping some of you can help me out in this regard. It's extremely difficult to plan a long term stocking list with no real life fish behavior experience at all. I am open to any and all input.

I also need to get my clean up crew going in short order, anyone have any suggestions on that subject based on the above potential stocking list?

Sorry so long. Thanks for giving it a look. Thanks even more for any input

Nick
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:32 AM   #2
 
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Wow that sounds like a nice array of fish... Ill tag along to see what other people will say.. Cant wait to see the FINAL stocking list..;.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:56 AM   #3
 
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First, let me say that there is nothing more fun than creating a stocking list! Especially when the person has done their research. Very nice job creating this list. There are never perfect answers with stocking lists, just elements of risk that we are trying to recognize and reduce. It would be very helpful to see a full shot picture of your entire tank, to get a "feel" for how the fish might behave with your specific aquascapping and reef structure. That being said, let me give you some comments based on my personal experience with these fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpig View Post
Been going through Pasfurs "Marine fish compatibility, creating a stocking list" posting trying to formulate a plan. Let me start by thanking him for writing it.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/s...ng-list-38579/
For anyone who hasn't read this article, it focuses on fish behavior, rather than bioload, when determining a stocking level. I grouped the fish into groups A, B, and C, based on behavior. The entire stocking list assumes reasonable amounts of dry/live rock are in place to form a quality reef structure.

Quote:
My tank has been up and the water and included live rock have been together in the tank for about three weeks circulating. My tank appears to be in the middle of a diatom bloom and the corraline algae is starting to show on some of my rocks but there are currently no fish in the tank as I am waiting for my
ammonia (.25ppm) and nitrate (20ppm) to drop.
Was this a typo? Is it true you have zero nitrites?

Quote:
Here is the A group. 1 1/2-2 units of fish per guidelines of up to 18 units for a 180G

Diamond Watchman Goby/Orange Spotted Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea Puellaris)(a) (if we can find him currently he is on hiatus somewhere)
Yellow Headed Sleeper Goby (Valenciennea Strigata)(a)
Royal Gramma (Gramma Loreto)(a)

I question the adding of two different species of Valenciennea's but due to tank size and what I have read about them I hope this will not be a problem.
This list looks fine to me. You have plenty of space for these fish to all find a nice home and not show much aggression towards each other.

Quote:
From there I will be looking to add from the B group. I have a few questions here... can I put three seperate species of Centropyge Angels into a 180G?
Yes, you can. Best added at the same time. It would be even better to add only 2 species of Centropyge Angels, and to add them IN PAIRS, for a total of 4 fish.

Quote:
I dont need to, but these are the fish I like... My preferences are for the Flame Angel then Lemon Peel then the Bi Color. I am considering the lemon peel because I wanted a yellow tang and have another potential problem with that later on.
A word of caution. The BiColor Angel and the Lemon Peel Angel are both very difficult to keep. They rarely ship well and almost always perish to eye or lip infections. These are 2 of my favorite fish in this hobby, but I have made the decision that i will no longer purchase these fish. I would suggest a pair of Flame Angels and a pair of Coral Beauty Angels (C. bispinosus). I realize the Coral Beauty is rarely a beauty when you see it at the LFS, but this fish is a beautiful fish after it settles into a tank. The purple body with the blue tips on the fins is striking. Plus, both the Flame and Coral Beauty are easy to keep, which is half the fun!

Quote:
The yellow tail damsels, general consensus is damsels are mean but I also read that yellow tails are more mellow and some more reading revealed they are even less agressive in groups so I was thinking of adding three to five of those. If they will be a problem I will not add them. However, if the tank is big enough and they wont terrorize all the other fish I'd like to add them because I like them. I'm thinking add the damsels and then later add the Angels at the same time.
This should be fine. The only potential issue is their behavior towards fish in group A, because they exhibit similar shelter type behavior. But I suspect they would quickly sort out territories and all get along fine. Just make sure you have a good size reef structure.

Quote:
This leaves me with one of my big dilema's. The tank came with a Tomato Clown but I want a Maroon clown more than I want the Tomato. What are the chances I can add them both in a 180 and if so add them at the same time? or with the tomato first because it seems from reading as if the tomato would be marginally more tolerant of the maroon being added than the maroon would be of the tomato being added. Ultimately If I have to I will find a new home for the tomato in favor of the maroon I want. Any advice here?
You've done your homework. I agree with all comments. Personally, I would add them at the same time, but keep them separate from each other in quarantine. Maybe use a tank divider. The Maroon will become quite more aggressive as it matures. Perhaps you could add a single Clarkii Clownfish instead? They have similar stripes to the Tomato but get dark and larger, like a Maroon. Either way, I think you will be fine. By the way, tank raised are well worth the money.

Quote:
This brings me to the C group. I would add the foxface first, then the two Regals together. This leaves me with my next dilema, two Zebrasoma's, A beautiful purple tang I already own, and I have always wanted a yellow tang. I'm thinking if the two Zebrasoma's wont work together (can I add them at the same time) I have read conflicting info on them. Some say they will not tolerate each other some say add them at the same time. I am willing to avoid this issue and scrap the yellow tang idea in favor of the lemon peel I mentioned earlier if the two zebrasoma's is a really bad idea. Is three dwarf angels a better idea?
I like that you recognize that Centropyge Angelfish, Foxface, and Tangs are all at risk fish when mixed together. They are all grazers and will view each other as competition for the same foods. To make up for this, it is very important that your fish are fed daily, and the use of algae sheets for grazing would be wise. My 180 is loaded with Tangs and a Foxface, and they eat an entire 12'' x 12'' sheet of algae daily. I will try to post more pictures today on my build thread. That may help you make some decisions.

That being said, I think you are fine to have 2 Zebrasoma species in the tank at the same time. No doubt the Purple Tang will be the dominate fish in your stocking list, so add it to the tank last. If the Yellow Tang is a different size (smaller would be best) and the Yellow Tang is already established or if they are added at the same time, then the larger Purple Tang should not perceive the Yellow Tang as much of a threat.

I also agree that the Yellow Tang would not enjoy a Lemon Peel Angelfish as a tankmate, but the Lemon Peel is not a good fish anyhow, so this part of the discussion isn't as important.

As an alternative to a Yellow Tang, you could consider a member of the Ctenochaetus genus, such as a Kohl Tang (Yellow Eye) or Tomini Tang. I would, however, suggest that you avoid the Acanthurus genus, as they are far more difficult to care for.

Quote:
I am too green to know all of this and could use some guidance. Lastly, I might like to add a Scribble Angel as my last fish. Realize this will all take a long time for me to accomplish if it's doable at all. I will be learning as I go of course.
Lets just say that when I read this portion of your post I made a loud whistling noise and would be impressed if you pulled this off. Very difficult to care for. Stay away from the Chaetodontoplus genus. Seriously. Avoid it like the plague. I would suggest you look for a Pomacanthus genus.

Quote:
I also would eventually LOVE to have a copper band and a mandarin or two but am nowhere near the experience level or tank maturity I need to consider them at all at this point due to their feeding issues. Will I be ready by the time I get down what will remain of this list? who knows. If I am how could they fit in?
I wouldn't do it. Again, these are very difficult fish to keep. You can have an amazing display of reasonably easy to keep fish, so why push your luck when you will already have so much money invested in livestock?
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:30 PM   #4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
It would be very helpful to see a full shot picture of your entire tank, to get a "feel" for how the fish might behave with your specific aquascapping and reef structure.


Here is a picture of the tank. Currently there is 135 lbs of live rock in the tank. I have another ~50lbs in my uncles 210 tank right now that needs to come home too. I also will probably add an additional ~75 lbs from marco into that later. I'd like to get at least 225lbs of it in there when it's all said and done. So this is not the finished rockscaping but for now it's what I have set up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
Was this a typo? Is it true you have zero nitrites?
No this was not a typo... I have had 0 nitrites in the tank since the day I purchased my test kit. With the exception of the fact that I have been topping sw for the past week and a half to raise my salinity up to 1.024 from 1.018 or so (currently at 1.023) my water parameters have not budged in two weeks. I'm afraid I missed allot of changes in the water chemistry during the two weeks the rock and new water were together just circulating with couple of power heads. I didn't have my test kit yet. The day I received my API test kit my water was at.

(11/12/2010)
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5-10ppm (they look the same color on the API results card to me)

(11/14/2010 thru present)
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

See my build thread for time line. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/s...r-build-55467/ Coralline algae and my diatom bloom started to appear a few days ago. I am waiting for my Nitrate to drop from 20. Should I be concerned with my ammonia being at 0.25ppm too I'd like to see a 0. but this stuff has not budged in two weeks.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
Yes, you can. Best added at the same time. It would be even better to add only 2 species of Centropyge Angels, and to add them IN PAIRS, for a total of 4 fish.

A word of caution. The BiColor Angel and the Lemon Peel Angel are both very difficult to keep. They rarely ship well and almost always perish to eye or lip infections. These are 2 of my favorite fish in this hobby, but I have made the decision that i will no longer purchase these fish. I would suggest a pair of Flame Angels and a pair of Coral Beauty Angels (C. bispinosus). I realize the Coral Beauty is rarely a beauty when you see it at the LFS, but this fish is a beautiful fish after it settles into a tank. The purple body with the blue tips on the fins is striking. Plus, both the Flame and Coral Beauty are easy to keep, which is half the fun!
I somehow missed the health issues with the lemon peel and the bi-color. Must be the last 10 months of information overload. I like your idea of the coral beauty. and going with a pair of those and a pair of flame angels. The coral beauty would have been my next choice after the bi-color. I was looking at the lemon peel and the yellow tang as alternatives to each other not intending to have both but since it sounds like I may get along with the yellow tang (my preference) it will be easy to drop the lemon peel for multiple reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpig
The yellow tail damsels, general consensus is damsels are mean but I also read that yellow tails are more mellow and some more reading revealed they are even less agressive in groups so I was thinking of adding three to five of those. If they will be a problem I will not add them. However, if the tank is big enough and they wont terrorize all the other fish I'd like to add them because I like them. I'm thinking add the damsels and then later add the Angels at the same time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
This should be fine. The only potential issue is their behavior towards fish in group A, because they exhibit similar shelter type behavior. But I suspect they would quickly sort out territories and all get along fine. Just make sure you have a good size reef structure.
Planning on adding more rock... another ~125lbs in addition to the above photo (almost double)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpig
This leaves me with one of my big dilema's. The tank came with a Tomato Clown but I want a Maroon clown more than I want the Tomato. What are the chances I can add them both in a 180 and if so add them at the same time? or with the tomato first because it seems from reading as if the tomato would be marginally more tolerant of the maroon being added than the maroon would be of the tomato being added. Ultimately If I have to I will find a new home for the tomato in favor of the maroon I want. Any advice here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpig
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
You've done your homework. I agree with all comments. Personally, I would add them at the same time, but keep them separate from each other in quarantine. Maybe use a tank divider. The Maroon will become quite more aggressive as it matures. Perhaps you could add a single Clarkii Clownfish instead? They have similar stripes to the Tomato but get dark and larger, like a Maroon. Either way, I think you will be fine. By the way, tank raised are well worth the money.
I will attempt the Tomato and the Maroon using the divided tank Q method and see how it goes adding them at the same time. If it doesn't go well I will find a new home for the Tomato... I already own him so that's my best option I think. Time will tell. Thanks for the advice on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
I like that you recognize that Centropyge Angelfish, Foxface, and Tangs are all at risk fish when mixed together. They are all grazers and will view each other as competition for the same foods. To make up for this, it is very important that your fish are fed daily, and the use of algae sheets for grazing would be wise. My 180 is loaded with Tangs and a Foxface, and they eat an entire 12'' x 12'' sheet of algae daily. I will try to post more pictures today on my build thread. That may help you make some decisions.
Thanks I look forward to having a look. I read your entire build thread again yesterday for probably the fourth time in the last three months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
That being said, I think you are fine to have 2 Zebrasoma species in the tank at the same time. No doubt the Purple Tang will be the dominate fish in your stocking list, so add it to the tank last. If the Yellow Tang is a different size (smaller would be best) and the Yellow Tang is already established or if they are added at the same time, then the larger Purple Tang should not perceive the Yellow Tang as much of a threat.

I also agree that the Yellow Tang would not enjoy a Lemon Peel Angelfish as a tankmate, but the Lemon Peel is not a good fish anyhow, so this part of the discussion isn't as important.

As an alternative to a Yellow Tang, you could consider a member of the Ctenochaetus genus, such as a Kohl Tang (Yellow Eye) or Tomini Tang. I would, however, suggest that you avoid the Acanthurus genus, as they are far more difficult to care for.
I was hoping to get a response like this about the yellow tang and the purple tang and figured it may be what the answer would be. With this list it's going to mean a long time before my purple tang comes home but it will be worth the wait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
Lets just say that when I read this portion of your post I made a loud whistling noise and would be impressed if you pulled this off. Very difficult to care for. Stay away from the Chaetodontoplus genus. Seriously. Avoid it like the plague. I would suggest you look for a Pomacanthus genus.

I wouldn't do it. Again, these are very difficult fish to keep. You can have an amazing display of reasonably easy to keep fish, so why push your luck when you will already have so much money invested in livestock?
I like the majestic and the imperator but it seems they should probably be in a larger tank than a 180. I don't know much about them either will have to poke around some more before I entertain the idea. If I did add a large angel this would be the last fish added even after the purple tang I assume, I would probably want one that is already larger than my Purple Tang correct?

I was pretty sure the scribble was going to be a no go idea... along with the mandarins and the copperband. I like them all, but it's way to early for me in this hobby to be upset that I'm just not ready for any of those. I wouldn't go to a race track today and pretend I could drive an indy car in a race either... Future tanks in a future time maybe we will have to see.

Pasfur thanks for your comments so far. much appreciated.

Nick
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Old 11-28-2010, 03:09 PM   #5
 
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Yes, I would add a large species of Angelfish as the last addition to the tank, as they are likely to be the most dominant fish. There might be a couple of exceptions, such as a Blue Face or Majestic, who would be best added before some of the more dominant fish, but for the most part the larger Angels are going to take tank ownership. (None of these comments apply to Centropyge angelfish)

As far as tanks size, you could make an argument that almost any fish needs a tank larger than a 180. I personally have no problem with most Angelfish in a 180, although some of them would not be appropriate, such as the Queen or French Angels. I personally have a Majestic in my 180 and I would be willing to keep an Imperator in a 180 as well.

I really like the aquascapping you have created. Having 2 separate live rock structures is cool, and should lead to some interesting fish observing.

As far as the ammonia at .25, I don't believe it. I think you have a faulty kit or you are having problems with the color chart. It is almost impossible to have ammonia at .25 at this point, especially with zero nitrite. In terms of Nitrate, it could take months for the Nitrate to drop to zero. I would not wait for this to add fish. If you are seeing coraline & your diatom bloom has gone, its time for the first round of fish. I would start with the Yellow Tail Damsels, then I would add fish from group A with the next addition of live rock.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:01 PM   #6
 
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I really like the aquascapping you have created. Having 2 separate live rock structures is cool, and should lead to some interesting fish observing.
Here are some shots i took 10 minutes ago of the rock layout and the progress of my diatom bloom.

This first one shows my sand bed. when this started I disturbed some sand on the far right to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was because the color change was kid of gradual over a two day period note the bright sand on the far right.



The rest are close ups. some not that in focus of coralline algae and the rockwork in the tank. these pics really show some of the hiding places I provided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
As far as the ammonia at .25, I don't believe it. I think you have a faulty kit or you are having problems with the color chart. It is almost impossible to have ammonia at .25 at this point, especially with zero nitrite. In terms of Nitrate, it could take months for the Nitrate to drop to zero. I would not wait for this to add fish. If you are seeing coraline & your diatom bloom has gone, its time for the first round of fish. I would start with the Yellow Tail Damsels, then I would add fish from group A with the next addition of live rock.
Thanks again looks like a trip to the LFS is in order with a water sample for a ammonia confirmation test. My LFS wants a water sample when you attempt to purchase fish from them anyway. dont think i'll pick up any yellow tail damsels today but take a look and see what they have. still need to get my Q tank running...

ohh clean up crew. Can I pick your brain on what I should be getting for the clean up crew?

Nick

Last edited by Warpig; 11-28-2010 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:56 PM   #7
 
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You don't have to have a clean up crew, unless you are just looking for the activity. Keep in mind, you will be eliminating some potential fish which would prey on inverts. Given the stocking list you have selected, however, adding a clean up crew would be fine. Its basically hermit crabs or snails, your choice. Whatever the LFS has in stock. I prefer snails for the dual function of sand shifting and glass cleaning.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:38 PM   #8
 
I just returned from the LFS and you were correct. the LFS ammonia test results were at 0 ammonia. The test kit they used was the same API test kit I use here at home. Something must be wrong with my ammonia test. I had them verify all other results against mine as well and everything else checked to be the same as my results.

Nick
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:31 PM   #9
 
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I just returned from the LFS and you were correct.
I'm sorry, can you speak up... I didn't hear you.
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