Deep Sand Bed Experiences - Page 2 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #11 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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i owe you .02 then.

nitrite -> nitrate is a hypoxic action though
nitrate -> N2 gas requires the anoxic environment

while this is only technicalities, it doesn't realy affect our tanks, ... what we're told of the nitrate cycle is really textbook overly simplified, it all depends what bacterial cultures have taken residence in our tank.

ammonia -> nitrite
nitrite -> well depends what bacteria is present, turns it either into ammonia or nitrate, if ammonia you've got a self-feeding loop till more of the bacteria that turns it into nitrate is present
nitrate -> ... well once again depends on the bacteria, and sometimes ammonium comes about. so things start to get really messy, ... so much for the text book
but things do eventually make it back to Nitrogen gas

enough of the unimportant stuff though.

i haven't look at the cyano bacteria, ... call it a major oversight, it wasn't in my tank so i didn't care to look into it. wasn't an algae i payed it even less mind.

that's definitely something i've gotta look into now though :), find out more of what's going on :)

i like new directions of inquiry :) thanks :)
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 11:49 AM
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Just for the record the cycle I like is:


fish->ammonia->nitrIte->nitrate
..........\/_______________\/________>plants----> fish



maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #13 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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have you heard of the anammox cycle ?
ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate -> ammonium -> (ammonium + nitrate) - N2 ?
all within an hypoxic environment ?

unfortunatly like the textbook nitrogen cycle, it's dependant on the right bacteria being present to move things along, some bacteria our tanks may obtain could move things backwards through the cycle. as we can't culture specific bacterial species we're rather stuck with whatever shows up in our tank.

even if we have the exact anaerobic bacteria to move things from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, they're going to compete with each other for space, each will grow and multiply as best it can overcrowding other species, so patches in the substrate will possess each bacteria in abundance or in decline as another is taking over that patch, things are always going to be in flux. tank stability is gained by a general over-all balance, but at any specific place things are going to be in constant flux.

that's if you have cultured just the exact species of bacteria to move things along in the text book example.

what if you have other bacterial types that are moving things along as well, they all have their own processes and nutritional preferences, and by-products they expel.

the text-book nitrogen cycle is a great oversimplification that is good for students just learning but do not have a deeper grasp of what is going on.

how about other bacterias present ?, those that tend to really excel at processing phosphates (organic) and releasing lots of inorganic phosphates ???

it's great to have the textbook example, ... just don't rely on it thinking you've got the world figured out, there's always more to learn. where you find there's exceptions to every rule, no matter how well you've got it figured out.

if we could reach a point where we understood everything, ... well i guess we should just pack our bags and reserve a spot at the cemetery for there's nothing left to do in life.

we don't make jokes about how impossible it is to figure out women if it were not so true.

there's always more to learn, and always going to be exceptions to everything we do learn, especially when we try to maintain an overly simplified example and think "this is it, i've got it now"
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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i like what i heard about plant roots, throws the nitrogen cycle on it's head.

they can take in ammonium directly, or they take in nitrates, convert it to nitrite, then to ammonium. going completely backwards from what the bacteria does.
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post #15 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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i think i'd be happiest with every option available.

live rock, plants, hopefully the bacteria that allows for the anammox cycle, ... everything to keep things down :)

Beaslbob, i like the idea of a self-sustaining tank as well

my tank at home (freshwater planted) i don't remove anything, the plants are growing, the fish are all happy.
actually the plants are really turning into a bit of a birds nest on half of the tank. i'm thinking of redoing the tank to incorporate everything i've learned the last few months. means quite a different critter selection from what i have now. and a different plant selection, finer sand substrate. ... not much staying the same.
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post #16 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flear View Post
i think i'd be happiest with every option available.

live rock, plants, hopefully the bacteria that allows for the anammox cycle, ... everything to keep things down :)

Beaslbob, i like the idea of a self-sustaining tank as well

my tank at home (freshwater planted) i don't remove anything, the plants are growing, the fish are all happy.
actually the plants are really turning into a bit of a birds nest on half of the tank. i'm thinking of redoing the tank to incorporate everything i've learned the last few months. means quite a different critter selection from what i have now. and a different plant selection, finer sand substrate. ... not much staying the same.

thanks for all the cycles above this post.


FWIW marine tanks with algae work the same way as your FW tank. Ran mine for 9 years and also didn't tank anything out.

my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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beaslbob, what kinds of fish and other critters do you have in your freshwater tanks your running this way ? (without removing anything) ?
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post #18 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flear View Post
beaslbob, what kinds of fish and other critters do you have in your freshwater tanks your running this way ? (without removing anything) ?
Pretty much anything you find at a lfs

guppies
platties
danios/glofish
neon tetras (and other tetras)
angelfish
silver hatchetfish
gold fish
mollies(do better in marine systems)
betta


On the marine side
neon goby
yellow watchman gobie
purple psuedochromis
coral catfish
clownfish
yellow tang
blue regal tang (dori tang LOL)
Mollies

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-30-2013, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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reminds me of the "green neon tetra", ... just one of those random memories

1" tetra simular to a neon but no red and what appears (from pictures online) to be a rather distinct blue

so i'm a little delayed in looking up specific info to decide on behaviors i'm interested in.

omnivore (looking for more of a herbivore diet)
wants soft water (ph 6.0) that kinda conflicts with snails & shrimp :(

i do like the size :) even for a 30 gallon tank :)
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