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This is a discussion on Angel Question within the Beginner Saltwater Aquariums forums, part of the Saltwater Fish and Coral Reef Tanks category; --> Pasfur Another ops. Haven't been testing alkalinity. Just Ph, Nitrate, Nitrite, Amonia and Sp Gravity reguarly. I guess that is my next stop tomorrow ...

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Old 06-16-2009, 12:16 AM   #11
 
Pasfur Another ops. Haven't been testing alkalinity. Just Ph, Nitrate, Nitrite, Amonia and Sp Gravity reguarly. I guess that is my next stop tomorrow at the LFS. Nothing I read really stressed Calcium and Alkalinity. Am thinking of ordering a CPR Bak Pak 2 along with an appropriate UV when I get back in town (am taking a trip to Hawaii in 2 days...will try NOT to bring home any fish! LOL) So I guess another parameter needs to be added to my spreadsheet huh? What do you you suppose to use to adjust the alkalninity and Ca if levels are off?

As for my fish..thanks. My Blue Angel is about 2 weeks old now as is one of the Clowns (clarki). The Clown Tang is the veteran of the main 85 gal tank. He's been around in there since I got back from Afghanistan in Jan and inhabits a little cave I've made with live rock and some false rock which you see in my signature...he's always poking out of there watching what is going on. Did not know much about him before finding him at my LFS and getting him as he seemed pretty unusual and colorful. So far he's proved hardier than 2 Niger triggers I've added to the tank recently and 1 flame angel! Hope it stays that way! :)
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:13 PM   #12
 
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How's your Chemistry?

Chemistry and the Aquarium1

Chemistry and the Aquarium2
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:25 PM   #13
 
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I personal do not test for ammonia or nitrite at all in an established aquarium. I test specific gravity every month or so and make adjustments for salt creep, but this is rare. If you maintain alkalinity correctly, you will also rarely have pH problems, so I only test pH on a monthly basis.

Nitrate is very usefull, but most of my tanks run Nitrate levels near zero. I do not utilize biological filtration in my aquariums, other than live rock, so more organic waste is removed by the skimmer. The Nitrates that do develop are generally removed by the sand bed or live rock.

So basically, my method of marine aquarium care depends almost exclusively on the testing and adjusting of alkalinity and calcium. I use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine Liquid Calcium supplement. I dose as necessary to keep alkalinity at 8-12 DKH and Calcium at 400 - 460 ppm. In the rare event that Calcium is high, but alkalinity is low, I do a series of partial water changes, because this could indicate a deficiency in other buffering ions.

Generally speaking, my 58 reef receives a buffer additive on Wednesday & Saturday, and a Calcium addition daily. I test every Sunday to confirm my dosage is maintaining the levels I desire.

My 180 FOWLR receives a buffer & Calcium additive every Saturday. I have to test prior to the addition on this tank, because I am sill adding livestock and the coraline algae growth is spreading and consuming Calcium at a more rapid level each week. Eventually this tank will also become somewhat predictable as well. For the record, I like to maintain alkalinity on my FOWLR aquariums at 14 DKH.

I find that using alkalinity and calcium results to predict the stability of your aquairum environment and necessary maintainance is much more reliable than ammonia and nitrite readings. This is pretty obvious when you think about it, because by the time you get any reading of ammonia or nitrite, or any swing in pH, it means that you had a problem all along that you never corrected. I'd rather prevent the problem, as opposed to reacting after the situation develops.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:36 PM   #14
 
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I fogot to tell you, I think the CPR skimmer line is very poor. I have a dual CPR unit on my 38 gallon QUARANTINE tank, because the quality is so poor I don't trust it to a real aquarium. The only exception is a Fish ONLY tank WITHOUT live rock.
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Old 06-17-2009, 11:17 PM   #15
 
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I fogot to tell you, I think the CPR skimmer line is very poor. I have a dual CPR unit on my 38 gallon QUARANTINE tank, because the quality is so poor I don't trust it to a real aquarium. The only exception is a Fish ONLY tank WITHOUT live rock.
PAsfur
Thanks alot. I just picked up an Alkalinity test kit and some Kent calcium supplement and I will test tonight before I leave on vacation. However I just noticed a problem with the main tank. I've added two Niger triggers (both at separate times) and both died within 24-36 hrs of their introduction to the main tank. Each was normal acting and quarantined at the LFS tank for me for about 10 days. I then added 3 green chromis yesterday and all of them died overnight. Bodies are intact but fish died. However the original inhabitants the clown tang, marroon clownfish, and purple tang all are doing well in the tank, acting normally and feeding. I tested the pH and it is 8.2, nitrate=5.0, nitrite=0.00 and Anomia=0.00. Specific gravity=1.025. Water temp 78-82 degrees. I just did a 5-10% water change last night with 5.5 gallons of fresh seawater but the last green chromis was still dead when I got home from work this PM. However like I said the other inhabitants are okay. I also have 2 sand sifters starfish who are doing fine. I had a few emporer crabs and hermit crabs prior to that and they died about 1 month ago. Anyway will take your advice on the Ca and alkalinity levels and let you know what results I get but any thoughts or advice is welcome. hHaven't experienced this before and would hate to loose my asfur angel, and purple tang for some unforseen problem.

Thanks again for all the advice!
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Old 06-21-2009, 08:18 AM   #16
 
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Rob,

Just for kicks, lets make the assumption that there is nothing wrong with the aquarium water, AND that the existing fish in your aquarium are not attacking the Niger Trigger or Chromis.

So, we have to look at what other changes occurred over the 24 hour period from when you purchased the fish to when the fish died.

Describe the LFS bagging, and your transportation and acclimation procedures.

Mark
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:04 AM   #17
 
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Rob,

Just for kicks, lets make the assumption that there is nothing wrong with the aquarium water, AND that the existing fish in your aquarium are not attacking the Niger Trigger or Chromis.

So, we have to look at what other changes occurred over the 24 hour period from when you purchased the fish to when the fish died.

Describe the LFS bagging, and your transportation and acclimation procedures.

Mark
Just got back from TDY to Hawaii so Aloha and sorry for the delayed reply! :) Fish there were awesome...wish I could have brought some back for sure! :)

Okay 1st thing...all current fish in both tanks are alive and well after a 10+ days absence. Did a 5 gal water change on the 80gal tank before I left and added some more sand to increased the sand base to 4" and set both tanks on autofeeders twice daily with flake and pellet. P Asfur, Purple Tang, Clown Tang and marron clownfish were all happily awaiting me in tank #1 when I got in this AM.

Tank #2 same except for the water change; used the autofeeders and left the sand bed intact as it already has 4" worth of substrate. Blue/Queen Angel, Yellow tang, Foxface, Clarki & Percula clownfish are doing well along with small damsel and 3 chromis. Sand sifter starfish are also doing well in both
tanks. So that's the update there on current status.

I tested the water later this afternoon.
  • Tank #1 Specific grav=1.023, Alkalinity=High 2.9-3.6, Ph=8.2, Amonia=0.0 ppm, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.25 water temp=78-80 C
  • Tank #2 Specific grav=1.026, Alkalinity=High 2.9-3.6, Ph=8.6, Amonia=1.0 ppm, Nitrate=20, Nitrite=0.0 water temp=78-80 C
As with the lost fish one trigger was purchased at local PetCo fish store where he was caught with net and put in tank water and bagged. No air was added. I drove from PetCo home 20min drive roughly and acclimated the fish over 30mins to my tank. Floated the fish for 10mins in local tank water then added him to bucket and added same amt of my tank water for another 10mins then fish added to tank. Fish initially did okay, swam around and looked alert. Other fish didn't bother him too much that I saw or noticed. Being a trigger he did go hide in the rocks alot but that happened initially with my 1st tigger I had before. With that one I left for 5 months to deploy to Afghanistan and he too was hidding; came home 5 mo later and the same trigger was all over the place, swimming, active and all. Anyway the next morning the new Niger triger was dead at the bottom of the tank. Other main fish (Asfur, P tang, Clown tang, Marron clownfish) were all okay. Thought it maybe the PetCo so I went to my LFS which is where I get the majority of my fish to include (Blue/Queen angel, P Asfur, P Tang, starfish) and got a medium Niger Trigger from them. Acclimated him similarly and he too died within 36hrs. As a test I then got 3 small chromis (which are nearly invincible) and added them to the tank. All died within 48hrs. Again local fish (Asfur, P tang, Clown tang, Marron clownfish) were doing well! They still are.

Like I've said I've tested the water and it looks okay. Don't have a method to check Calcium yet but am looking for a kit. So it seems to be the fish? That's my thought but could it be the water? What''s your thoughts? I'd be interested. I do have a 10 gal Quarriantine tank which I set up about 1.5 mo ago in the basement but stopped using it after a brown tang I bought died within 2 days in it that I got from PetCo. Is it the store or me being hasty/inpatient?
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Old 06-28-2009, 07:16 AM   #18
 
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There is something missing still. More information that we are not getting. Niger Triggers are EXTREMELY easy to keep. You almost have to cook this fish for dinner if you want it to die.

First, can you confirm that the Niger Trigger you are talking about is "Odonus niger" Triggers and Filefish Maybe we are not talking about the same fish.

Tell me about the trip home from the LFS. I am having images of a car ride home in 110 degree heat with a 3 year old child holding a plastic bag up in the air as you bounce around on a dirt road in your Convertible Jeep.

Describe how you pick out a fish to purchase. As we confident that you bought healthy fish to begin with?

By any chance did you test the water in the transport bag after you opened the bag? This is possibly an issue. Probably where we will find the problem.

I think you tank water is fine. The big 3, ammonia, nitrite, and pH are generally the cause of short term rapid deaths. Nitrate, calcium, and alkalinity are keys to long term success with existing livestock.

I would suggest that you begin using the quarantine again. Just test the water to ensure you are providing a high quality environment in the Q tank. For the record, the Powder Brown Tang is one of the most difficult to keep of all aquarium fish. You probably just bought a stressed fish.
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:22 PM   #19
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
There is something missing still. More information that we are not getting. Niger Triggers are EXTREMELY easy to keep. You almost have to cook this fish for dinner if you want it to die.

First, can you confirm that the Niger Trigger you are talking about is "Odonus niger" Triggers and Filefish Maybe we are not talking about the same fish.

Tell me about the trip home from the LFS. I am having images of a car ride home in 110 degree heat with a 3 year old child holding a plastic bag up in the air as you bounce around on a dirt road in your Convertible Jeep.

Describe how you pick out a fish to purchase. As we confident that you bought healthy fish to begin with?

By any chance did you test the water in the transport bag after you opened the bag? This is possibly an issue. Probably where we will find the problem.

I think you tank water is fine. The big 3, ammonia, nitrite, and pH are generally the cause of short term rapid deaths. Nitrate, calcium, and alkalinity are keys to long term success with existing livestock.

I would suggest that you begin using the quarantine again. Just test the water to ensure you are providing a high quality environment in the Q tank. For the record, the Powder Brown Tang is one of the most difficult to keep of all aquarium fish. You probably just bought a stressed fish.
Hey P.Asfur
NO car ride home is in my airconditioned vehicle (no jeep; german sports car) in the passenger seat and was only a few minutes. Less than 45 mins max. Kids are 8 and 10 and don't get to hold the fish 90% of the time due to the kid sloshing the fish syndrome you mention previously seen. :) Yes we are talking about Odonus niger x2 which have each expired in the main tank within 24-48 hrs. :( As for picking them to purcchase I tried to pick the most active fish I can find/saw. No spots/tears in fins or signs of ich or disease. I did not test the bag water at all but it was 99% of the time the water from the LFS tank which the fish were doing fine in before purchase. Main tank always runs a little warmer than my other tank so I just adusted the temp to 75-78 on the heater.

Wife & I stopped by the LFS today after work and she got me 2 sandsifting starfish, 10+ blue leg hermits, and 2 cleaners shrimp which I distributed between the main tank and 2nd tank. Cleaner shrimp died within mins of introduction to main tank however blue leg hermits and starfish are doing okay and active. So now I am totally confused. Only thing different since last post was I added an appropriate amt of Kent Marine Pro Buffer to both tanks. Tank #2 is doing well; active and blue leg hermits and starfish are all active and okay. Maybe I should have added the cleaner shrimp to that tank (tried to save one of the ones from the main tank by a quick dip and transfer but to no avail).

So do you really think it is the store water? As for now I am gonna check the quarrantine tank tomorrow and make sure it is up and running okay and add maybe some inexpensive chromis/damsels and a starfish and crab this week to see how they do before adding them to any of the tanks.

What am I missing here? This is my most established tank and nothing seems to be in distress here otherwise?
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:31 PM   #20
 
I did have some green algae grown while I was gone and there is some what I believe is red algae blooming on my life rocks and my wave circulatro and some of my pumps but otherwise nothing new else has been added and each fish is still hanging out in their respective areas of the tank they have staked of for themselves. No erratic behavor or anything.
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