Angel Question
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Angel Question

This is a discussion on Angel Question within the Beginner Saltwater Aquariums forums, part of the Saltwater Fish and Coral Reef Tanks category; --> Hi. This is my 1st posting on the forum but hopefully not my last. I have set up an saltwater tank in my family ...

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Old 06-11-2009, 11:23 PM   #1
 
Angel Question

Hi. This is my 1st posting on the forum but hopefully not my last. I have set up an saltwater tank in my family room and its been up and running since late last July. Currently after much trial and error and a prolonged trip overseas (work related) I currently have my tank where I want it almost. Currently its an 85 gal tank with about 20-30lbs of live rock I'd estimate on live sand and substrate run by a canister filter and also with a UV sterilizer and Red Sea HangOn protien skimmer. All has been up and running for awhile now wih the UV filter the most recently added...oh no I have added a wave circulator about 2 months ago to add some current.

As for fish, currently have a med sized Purple tang, a regal/clown tang, a small maron clownfish, and a small/med sized P. Asfur which all get along well so far over the past 30-45 days. Want to add another angel and am thinking about an H. ciliaris (Queen Angel) or Clarion Angel or Passer Angel to the tank. I've tried two Niger Trigger both of whom died within a week however no problems with the current inhabitants. Also am thinking of a dwarf angel such as a Coral Beauty or Lemon Peel Angel, maybe a Flame. Any big no-no's or problems that should I be aware of or that may arise?

I do have another 55 gal tank with a Yellow Tang, a reg Foxface, and I think a med Blue Angel which was passed off as as a Queen to me about 1-2 weeks ago. Also have a few blue chromis and two small clownfish (percula and clarki) but am not adding anymore to that other than an invertabrate (hermit crab) or two.

Anyway any advise is appreciated! :)
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:26 AM   #2
 
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welcome to the forum.
i dont have experience with angels as the majority are not reef safe, or i should say reef cationable.

as for your setup there are a few raised eyebrows. 30 pounds of live rock isnt anywhere near enough. you should have ( and im estimating here ) around 85-150 pounds. live rock, flow and a quality protien skimmer is the basics of saltwater filtration. this in tandem with proper feeding practices, an occasional small water change and optional a sump/refugium with macro algae like chaeto, carbon/phosban reactors, a deep sand bed ( which brings up the question of what you are using as a substrate and how many inches deep is it ) a UV, and i never suggest a canister filter as these tend to trap debris and detritus unless cleaned very often (which at this point in time i prob. wouldnt do if i was you because you dont have much live rock) . some people use filter socks but i dont even suggest them as these need to be cleaned very frequent. so bio balls, HOB filters, canister filters, under gravel filters all trap debris and cause nutrient spikes down the road, best avoided. yes, you can use them, but yes, there are better ways of doing things. i run a sump, skimmer, and have good flow (as mentioned above) and have 0ppm nitrates.
i may be wrong but i cant recall hearing good things about the red sea skimmer. IMO a skimmer is the most important thing you can have for a saltwater fish tank. this is not an area to skimp on. reading online reviews on skimmer brands and models and asking around is a good idea to find one worth your time and money. it may also be a good idea to look for a local reefing club to find deals, meet people with the same interest, and learn new things.
is the 55 a QT tank or just another setup? how much flow is in the tank, you said you added a wave circulater? brand/model? can you post your exact water parameters? ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, pH, salinity, temp, alk, ca and mag and what you used to test for them. what kind of water are you using?


looking forward to pictures and again welcome to the forum.
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:41 AM   #3
 
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I agree with the comments above. You certainly will want to add more liverock to handle the growing bioload. 80-125 pounds would be more normal for an 85 gallon aquarium. I'm not personally fond of the Prism skimmer line, but the real test is in the results. What are your Nitrate, alkalinity, and calcium readings?

As for your fish selection. I am unclear on what Tang you have when you say Regal/Clown. I have never heard the common name of Regal used for a Clown Tang (Acanthurus lineatus), but some old school hobbyists use the name Regal to mean Hippo, or Acanthurus hepatus. Which species do you have?

In any case, i think you are doing well with the current livestock. I have a lot of experience with angelfish, so let me share my thoughts. The P. asfur is near and dear to my heart, as you might guess from my screen name. I think you need to give some serious considerations for the long term plans on this fish, as they grow fast and produce a lot of waste. For comparision, I am still undecided on keeping a P. asfur in my 180 gallon, because i'm not so sure it is a good idea long term. I may decide on a Blue Face or Blue Girdled (Majestic) instead.

In any case, given than you arleady have an established P. asfur in your aquarium, it would be a very poor idea to add another large angelfish. If you decide to add another angel, add a species from the Centropyge genus, such as the Coral Beauty, BiColor, Lemon Peel, etc. Angelfish from any other genus are likely to be at odds with the P. asfur. In my experience, aquariums less than 6 feet in length are best to only keep 1 angelfish. However, adding a Centropyge will give you the best odds of success.
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:33 AM   #4
 
Hi. Thanks for the info. Here is my last few readings...I keep them on an Excel Spreadsheet to keep track of things.
I've included it at the bottom. I use one of the saltwater testing kits from my local store (test tubes and comparision cards). My skimmer is AquaC Remora Hang ON Skimmer using a Maxijet 1200 pump. I also have a Rio+ 600 pump running my UVS-11 UV sterilized. My cannister is a Fluval 405. This tank is a 85 gallon and is my 1st tank that has been up for about 1 yr. I do not check my Ca (don't know how); can you expound more? My wave circulator is Koralia 3 rated at 850 gph and they seem to like it pretty well. Heater is rated for 100gal so no problems there. I do have more than 30lbs of live rock with quite alot of live rock added which all the fish seem to nip at and graze on. Tank inhabitants are: 1 med sized Purple tang, 1 clown tang, 1 maron clownfish, and 1 med sized P. Asfur so far. Would like to add more activity to the tank however and an addtional fish (thus the attempt at the trigger) but a good hardy small pgymy angel would be preferable too. Am scared to add a wrase and a friend recommended a lionfish but I just don't think that's a good idea! Oh yeah I have 2-3 inches of live substrate/coral and an additional 2 inches of live sand in the tank (bought by the bag at local tropics store) and I've been using Red Sea Salt mix.

Tank #1 Log
10-May-098.21.0245.000.250.25 damsel death21-May-097.81.02520.000.250.25B utterfly death7-Jun-098.01.0255.000.000.00

As for tank #2 it consists of a 55 gal tank (separate) with 1 med Yellow Tang, 1 med Foxface, and 1med Blue/Queen Angel, 2 small clownfish (percula and clarki), and some very small blue/green chromis, and 1-2 blue leg hermit crabs. Not adding anything else to it. It two has the same cannister filter as above and airstone but no skimmer as of yet. I do have an inline Ionizer added to the water line from the cannister. You mention reef sumps...I've seen them but have no idea how to plug one into my existing setups or how to set one up? Which ones are best? My local shop has them in their main setups and their water always looks good and clean and their fish healthy but the hows and wheres not so sure.

I'll stick with leaving off adding any new angelfish to my main tank. As for future plans a 180-200 gallon is my dream but am trying to wait until I move to my next duty station (am US military) next year to do that although wife's short vacation this weekend with the kids does give me opportunity to sneak one into the house and our master bedroom! :) Hmm... decisions...decisions. However that brings up the biggest question that looms ahead. How do you move tanks and fish from one local to another or city to another when that happens? New thread I suppose. Here are pics of the tank before a few swaps and replacements to the team! :)

PS I went to UofL Med school back in 95! Small world!
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Old 06-13-2009, 12:08 PM   #5
 
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you can make a sump out of a used tank
http://www.fishforum.com/member-subm...g-sumps-15930/

eventually your going to want to remove the canister filters as they build up debris and cause problems. i also suggest a DIY sump and upgrading the skimmer.

you have a total of a 3in. sand bed?
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Old 06-14-2009, 03:38 AM   #6
 
Okay..thanks I'll check that out. I have a total of about 4-5 inches of sand and substrate on the bottom of the tank which you can see on the 2nd pic sort of I think. If I get rid of the cannister then what do I use for filtration at that point? I do clean them regularly..does that help?
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Old 06-14-2009, 06:52 AM   #7
 
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The "filtration" on a marine aquarium is the live rock and protein skimmer. See my 180 for an example of this in action: http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-f...f-build-21979/
You have an Aqua Remora skimmer, which has a good reputation. We made the incorrect assumption that you have a Prism. I also think you have made a great decision by adding a UV Sterilizer to the setup. Tangs can be Ich magnets, and a UV will go a long way to help prevent disease.

I really think the set up of your main tank is excellent. The only questions I have are your fish selections, which will need more space in the near future. You have an appetite for fish that are difficult to keep and then you try to cram them into aquariums that are smaller than what is ideal. This is something that you need to recognize and be cautious about long term, because you will find yourself throwing away a lot of money on fish, when the outcome was somewhat predictable. Your biggest immediate concern is the Blue Angel. A 55 gallon tank will cause developmental problems with this fish, especially on a system which does not utilize a protein skimmer.

Moving on, lets talk about calcium for a second. So many long term problems with marine aquariums are a result of the improper management of alkalinity, and specifically calcium. Every marine aquarium, be it fish only, FOWLR, or reef, needs proper regulation of alkalinity and calcium. The simplest reason for this, without getting into a lot of chemistry, is that "saltwater" is not "seawater" unless the ions that make up saltwater are in the correct proportion to each other to mimic that of natural seawater.

The solotuion for the at home fishkeeper is to maintain alkalinity between 8 and 12 DKH, and to maintain calcium between 400 and 460 ppm. This is accomplished by testing the water and adding the necessary supplements. I personally use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine Liquid Calcium supplement. Here is the simple way to interpret your test results:
Calcium low, alkalinity high.... add calcium.
Calcium low, alkalinity low.... add calcium and buffer.
Calcium high, alkalinity high... wait until additives are needed.
Calcium high, alkalinity low... you need a water change to replenish magnesium, borate, and other buffering ions.

As you can see, the testing of alkalinity and calcium are not only good for the overall stability of the aquarium, but they also help guide you to how frequently you need to be doing water changes on your marine system.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:01 PM   #8
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasfur View Post
The "filtration" on a marine aquarium is the live rock and protein skimmer. See my 180 for an example of this in action: http://www.fishforum.com/saltwater-f...f-build-21979/
You have an Aqua Remora skimmer, which has a good reputation. We made the incorrect assumption that you have a Prism. I also think you have made a great decision by adding a UV Sterilizer to the setup. Tangs can be Ich magnets, and a UV will go a long way to help prevent disease.

I really think the set up of your main tank is excellent. The only questions I have are your fish selections, which will need more space in the near future. You have an appetite for fish that are difficult to keep and then you try to cram them into aquariums that are smaller than what is ideal. This is something that you need to recognize and be cautious about long term, because you will find yourself throwing away a lot of money on fish, when the outcome was somewhat predictable. Your biggest immediate concern is the Blue Angel. A 55 gallon tank will cause developmental problems with this fish, especially on a system which does not utilize a protein skimmer.

Moving on, lets talk about calcium for a second. So many long term problems with marine aquariums are a result of the improper management of alkalinity, and specifically calcium. Every marine aquarium, be it fish only, FOWLR, or reef, needs proper regulation of alkalinity and calcium. The simplest reason for this, without getting into a lot of chemistry, is that "saltwater" is not "seawater" unless the ions that make up saltwater are in the correct proportion to each other to mimic that of natural seawater.

The solotuion for the at home fishkeeper is to maintain alkalinity between 8 and 12 DKH, and to maintain calcium between 400 and 460 ppm. This is accomplished by testing the water and adding the necessary supplements. I personally use Kent Marine Super Buffer DKH and Kent Marine Liquid Calcium supplement. Here is the simple way to interpret your test results:
Calcium low, alkalinity high.... add calcium.
Calcium low, alkalinity low.... add calcium and buffer.
Calcium high, alkalinity high... wait until additives are needed.
Calcium high, alkalinity low... you need a water change to replenish magnesium, borate, and other buffering ions.

As you can see, the testing of alkalinity and calcium are not only good for the overall stability of the aquarium, but they also help guide you to how frequently you need to be doing water changes on your marine system.
Oh okay Asfur. Thanks. So would it be better to add a sump to the 55gal tank OR protien skimmer now. I do plan on transplanting the Blue Angel to a larger tank in about 10months when I move to San Antonio. Am looking at two tanks there 90gal and 120-150 if possible. But am holding off on that now as I would have to move the fish anyways. Hmm sounds like you're saying I should hold off adding any more fish to either tank huh?

I do use: Kent Buffer Kdh and Kent Essential Elements to add to the tank with my water changes. But I'll get a Calcium test kit soonest and check out your sump article as well. Would you recommend a UV sterilzer too for the 55gal tank? Anything else for the 1st tank (main set up) needed?
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Old 06-14-2009, 11:09 PM   #9
 
Here are some of my friendly inhabitatants! :) My clown tang kept hiding in his usual space; however both my purple tang and my Asfur angel seemed to be swimming along happily. My Blue angel seems to have calmed down my yellow tang's previous racious behavior toward all other inhabitants other than the clownfish. I also re-arranged all the rock in the tank this time and kept them light restricted for about 6-10 hrs after adding the Blue Angel this time. Seems to have worked so far.

Thinking I may need some more live rock and the LFS has acquacultured life rock too which I think my tangs in both tanks would like. Wonder how different it is from other live rock other than the live green flora growing from it. I may pickup a few starfish and cleaner shrimp tomorrow.
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Old 06-15-2009, 05:29 AM   #10
 
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Essential Elements is a trace element supplement. You are correct in that you will need to add Calcium separately, after testing to confirm the current calcium levels. By the way, do you test alkalinity?

Other than the protein skimmer on the 55, and a UV if you like, I see nothing else pressing at this time. Nice looking fish. Good luck with the Clown Tang! How long have you had it?
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