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why do i need to wait 1 day after water change to add plant nutrients?

This is a discussion on why do i need to wait 1 day after water change to add plant nutrients? within the Beginner Planted Aquarium forums, part of the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium category; --> I mean everyone has there method that works fine add your plant fertilizer when you wish it just defeats the purpose of your added ...

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why do i need to wait 1 day after water change to add plant nutrients?
Old 01-28-2011, 06:18 PM   #11
 
I mean everyone has there method that works fine add your plant fertilizer when you wish it just defeats the purpose of your added chemicals to make your water free of chemicals so that it is safe for fish so why add anything else and not wait a whole day before you add your fertilizer. I have been growing plants like this for a long time now and tell you it is the best for your planted nutrients and by adding them sooner just defeats the purpose of helping your plants grow efficiently. I will add it will only be beneficial to your plants as these other chemicals will all not be present after the 24 hour period. Also some nutrients are already present when you do your water changes anyway. So only if you feel that you should add your fertilizer the same day is all up to you I just thought I comment on what benefits your plants if your ways of doing your fertilizing works then why change your methods. I am no genius but if we tend to do things that work already then why change our methods.
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Old 01-28-2011, 06:23 PM   #12
 
Except most heavy metals don't hurt your fish or plants or tank in general. They just want you to think that so they can sell you a product to do something you don't need done in the first place. Prime is a touchy dechlorinator for many reasons. I have some for emergencies, but would not prefer to use it weekly simply as a dechlor, since its much more then that. All you need is something to remove chlorine and/or chloramine if you have that . The 1st can be removed my aging water.

I'm gonna miss my well water some day....
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:35 AM   #13
 
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I agree with Mikaila on the conditioner issue. I too can't see the usefulness of one like Prime in a well-planted tank where ammonia and nitrite will be non-existent as far as being toxic to fish and plants, and nitrate will be very low.

On the issue of adding Flourish or other fertilizers the day following a water change using a conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals, i see someone linked my comments in another thread so I won't repeat all that. The explanation there for doing this is clear I think.

As for conditioners that detoxify heavy metals, I also think in some situations this is un-necessary. Plants have the ability to do the same thing, and probably to the relatively same extent as the water conditioner. Plants "take up" heavy metals, which is very different from assimilating them as nutrients. Obviously there must be a limit to this capability, but given that most of us are on municipal water systems that monitor heavy metals, the level is not likely to be beyond what we term "trace amounts," and conditioners like Prime will only handle trace amounts anyway. [I also got this from the scientist at Seachem when I contacted them.] However, one does have to exercise caution. First, levels of some heavy metals that are safe for humans are not safe for fish; copper is one, and given that most homes have copper water pipes, it is perhaps sensible to use a conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals (of which copper is one, as are iron, zinc, manganese, nickel). If you are on a well, there may be some of these in the well water and obviously not being monitored by any municipal water company if a private well.

Last, on the issue of using or not using a conditioner with "aged" water. As another member mentioned, chloramine is not removed by standing or briskly agitating water as chlorine will be; and there may be other substances in the water. For the relatively small cost of a jug of good water conditioner--which for me means it handles chlorine and chloramine and heavy metals--I would not risk the fish. Even if they "live through" it, they can be weakened or damaged internally, or be severely stressed and that weakens the immune system. If you know exactly what is in your source water and how much, you can make a better-informed decision, but precaution is probably better for most of us.

Byron.

Last edited by Byron; 01-29-2011 at 12:37 AM..
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Kelso (01-30-2011)
Old 01-30-2011, 01:55 AM   #14
 
I kinda agree with that bryon. Its entirely up to the individual. I however take a kinda diff vew, IMO there is nothing to "detoxify" in the vast majority of taps except chlorine/chloramine planted or unplanted tank. I'm not sure why or where the view on heavy metals came from in this hobby, but it makes no sense to me at all.

Heavy metals like Copper, Iron, Zinc, Magnesium, MO, CO, and whatever else I am forgetting are all essential trace elements for ALL living things. Lead is the only one that is actually unwanted and due to drinking regulations this should only be worried about on private sources. I know water varies from place to place, but unless your water tastes like blood(iron) or pennies(copper) I wouldl never worry about heavy metals. I know we have all tried drinking water at some point in our lives that was high in copper or iron and I am betting you avoid that tap again. Heavy metals are added by your fertilizer and they are in your fish food too. Pick up any can of fish food and start reading from the end of the ingredients list. Magnesium is the core atom of a chlorophyll molecule and is vital to photosynthesis. Copper is kinda up in the air. If your can't keep shrimp, like they repeatedly fall over dead for no reason then yeah you might have elevated copper levels. Just because you have copper pipes does not mean you have high copper levels that need to be neutralized. This house does have a private well, it is tested yearly usually just for nitrate and bacteria and occasional random metal. Last full blown lab test was in 04'. We have a metal hot water "tank" and I pull water from both cold and hot taps for water changes. Nice old copper pipes. Water is added straight to tank, no decholor or conditioners.

In 04 my well contained the following:
Copper- 0.13-1.3ppm
Iron - 0.002-0.3ppm
Lead- 0.002-0.015ppm

My well water is safe drinking water. Right after water changes I dose EI fertlizers. Usually macro and traces alternating days. CSM+B is my trace fertilizer and it is nothing but heavy metals actually(kinda like flourish trace). I also add epsom salts for extra extra Magnesium. I throw so much stuff in my tank my rainbows learned to stop eating the dry fertilizers for the most part, since I don't bother to dissolve them first XD. My cherry shrimp have yet to drop dead.

Hence why I don't really see any point to binding heavy metals at all, because well you then pay to add them back. Those that don't have planted tanks have them in their fish food, so no matter what you do fish is luckily going to get them. So in the end I agree with you it doesn't really matter what you do IMO. Be cheap and leave them there or be extra extra cautious and remove them to put your mind at ease. I lean to the be cheap side like I do with most things lol. The net loss does not equal the net gain to me.

Lastly Byon you mentioned in the other thread looking for a dechlor that just did what it was suppose to do and not mess with anything else. That is Sodium thiosulfate, the main active ingredient in most dechlors and is what I intend to use when I move. $10 will easily get a pound and lets just say it treats A LOT of water(like years for me). If you have just chlorine it will remove that just fine. Chloramies get broken down to ammonia and will get gobbled up really fast in a planted tank. When you think about it, it just turned chloramine into plant food >.>
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Kelso (01-30-2011)
Old 01-30-2011, 01:58 AM   #15
 
Thanks for everyone's response. Sounds like the recommendation then is just to use a Chlorine/Chloramine remover with every water change. Prime is optional.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:11 AM   #16
 
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I love having nice soft, acidic, fresh well water with no chemicals in it :) Straight from sink to tank :)

Mikaila and Byron, thanks for all the info!

Last edited by Kelso; 01-30-2011 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:13 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Mikaila31 View Post
I kinda agree with that bryon. Its entirely up to the individual. I however take a kinda diff vew, IMO there is nothing to "detoxify" in the vast majority of taps except chlorine/chloramine planted or unplanted tank. I'm not sure why or where the view on heavy metals came from in this hobby, but it makes no sense to me at all.

Heavy metals like Copper, Iron, Zinc, Magnesium, MO, CO, and whatever else I am forgetting are all essential trace elements for ALL living things. Lead is the only one that is actually unwanted and due to drinking regulations this should only be worried about on private sources. I know water varies from place to place, but unless your water tastes like blood(iron) or pennies(copper) I wouldl never worry about heavy metals. I know we have all tried drinking water at some point in our lives that was high in copper or iron and I am betting you avoid that tap again. Heavy metals are added by your fertilizer and they are in your fish food too. Pick up any can of fish food and start reading from the end of the ingredients list. Magnesium is the core atom of a chlorophyll molecule and is vital to photosynthesis. Copper is kinda up in the air. If your can't keep shrimp, like they repeatedly fall over dead for no reason then yeah you might have elevated copper levels. Just because you have copper pipes does not mean you have high copper levels that need to be neutralized. This house does have a private well, it is tested yearly usually just for nitrate and bacteria and occasional random metal. Last full blown lab test was in 04'. We have a metal hot water "tank" and I pull water from both cold and hot taps for water changes. Nice old copper pipes. Water is added straight to tank, no decholor or conditioners.

In 04 my well contained the following:
Copper- 0.13-1.3ppm
Iron - 0.002-0.3ppm
Lead- 0.002-0.015ppm

My well water is safe drinking water. Right after water changes I dose EI fertlizers. Usually macro and traces alternating days. CSM+B is my trace fertilizer and it is nothing but heavy metals actually(kinda like flourish trace). I also add epsom salts for extra extra Magnesium. I throw so much stuff in my tank my rainbows learned to stop eating the dry fertilizers for the most part, since I don't bother to dissolve them first XD. My cherry shrimp have yet to drop dead.

Hence why I don't really see any point to binding heavy metals at all, because well you then pay to add them back. Those that don't have planted tanks have them in their fish food, so no matter what you do fish is luckily going to get them. So in the end I agree with you it doesn't really matter what you do IMO. Be cheap and leave them there or be extra extra cautious and remove them to put your mind at ease. I lean to the be cheap side like I do with most things lol. The net loss does not equal the net gain to me.

Lastly Byon you mentioned in the other thread looking for a dechlor that just did what it was suppose to do and not mess with anything else. That is Sodium thiosulfate, the main active ingredient in most dechlors and is what I intend to use when I move. $10 will easily get a pound and lets just say it treats A LOT of water(like years for me). If you have just chlorine it will remove that just fine. Chloramies get broken down to ammonia and will get gobbled up really fast in a planted tank. When you think about it, it just turned chloramine into plant food >.>
I guess my caution comes from knowing that other members reading these threads are living all over the globe and thus will be situated in very different circumstances with respect to water. Unless one knows what is in their water, prudence is to me the better course.

Heavy metals (iron, copper, zinc, manganese, nickel, mercury, lead, aluminium, cadmium and maybe a few others) are toxic to all organisms, from plants to animals to bacteria. A study by G. Sposito included in Sigel's Metal Ions in Biological Systems shows that mercury and copper are the most toxic of heavy metals to Algae, fungi and fish; for plants it is mercury, lead, then copper. Copper is frequently the cause of fish deaths. Back in the 1990's when I was losing fish for no explicable reason [turned out to be an unidentified toxic substance leeching from a chunk of wood], I consulted the Curator of Freshwater Fish at the Vancouver Aquarium and Marine Science Centre and his first suggestion was copper; he mentioned that he normally had 2-3 calls a month from aquarists with unexplained fish losses, and in 2 out of 3 cases it was copper from the water pipes, new pipes being the obvious culprit. The green discolouration one sometimes sees in white bathtubs within the path of water from the tap is copper.

Copper levels for humans are safe as high as 1.3 ppm and based more on the taste factor, whereas fish have trouble with .02 ppm, according to studies cited in Walstad's book [chapter II]. Juvenile fish naturally show the most effect from copper and brook trout had juvenile mortality at .010 to .017 ppm (mg/l) of copper in a study by J.M. McKim included in Rand & Petrocelli's Fundamentals of Aquatic Toxicology, also cited in Walstad. Of course, well planted aquaria will not have such issues as these levels are supposedly handled by the plants. Walstad mentions that waterhyacinth was able to take up virtually all copper when the solution was as high as 10 mg/l within 3 weeks. But plant species vary in this.

Few water conditioners do not detoxify heavy metals, I think I've only come across one, can't remember which, but it was online that I saw it, not locally. I have read about Sodium thiosulfate, but how do you know how much to use, i.e., this or that amount per gallon? I would consider this, just to avoid dumping more stuff in my aquaria that I don't need in there; but I know what's in our water here so heavy metals is not an issue.
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:01 PM   #18
 
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Copper levels for humans are safe as high as 1.3 ppm and based more on the taste factor, whereas fish have trouble with .02 ppm, according to studies cited in Walstad's book [chapter II]. Juvenile fish naturally show the most effect from copper and brook trout had juvenile mortality at .010 to .017 ppm (mg/l) of copper in a study by J.M. McKim included in Rand & Petrocelli's Fundamentals of Aquatic Toxicology, also cited in Walstad. Of course, well planted aquaria will not have such issues as these levels are supposedly handled by the plants. Walstad mentions that waterhyacinth was able to take up virtually all copper when the solution was as high as 10 mg/l within 3 weeks. But plant species vary in this.

Few water conditioners do not detoxify heavy metals, I think I've only come across one, can't remember which, but it was online that I saw it, not locally. I have read about Sodium thiosulfate, but how do you know how much to use, i.e., this or that amount per gallon? I would consider this, just to avoid dumping more stuff in my aquaria that I don't need in there; but I know what's in our water here so heavy metals is not an issue.
Interesting since the lowest possible copper levels in my tap about 7 times that and it is possibly higher then that. Even before I had planted tanks I stopped using any conditioners or dechlorinatiors and nothing seemed even slightly stressed. I also have a very hard time following this given all the copper based meds we use in this hobby for parasite control and those are not killing our fish either... They will kill shrimp for sure. This is generally why I keep shrimp as they are much more sensitive then fish and provide a good early warning system. Amusingly ich will die from copper toxicity before your fish will. Maybe this is why I never see ich in my tanks lol.

There is actually a natural trout run thing within a mile of this house. There are natural springs there, I know of half a dozen piped and non-piped springs. I have always assumed they come from the same aquifer as our well because both have about 20ppm of nitrate at the source, copper levels are probably different. I can agree with you on location kinda. I had a hard time drinking tap water in much more arid states. Around here lakes and smaller rivers are often spring fed. I know a lot of people don't know indepth where their tap water comes from which is a shame.

Using Sodium thiosulfate is usually done much more accurately then bottled dechlors which usually add more then you need. The general procedure is to test chlorine levels in your tap water, this is generally a inexpensive test since it is so common. Then do add Sodium thiosulfate to deal with those levels. There is a good calculator online for dosing Sodium thiosulfate, this however is target towards ponds. One would generally make a stock solution in RO water where for example 1 drop per 10 gallons removed 1ppm of chlorine. Prime can neutralize 4ppm of chlorine following directions, which is a lot more then what most people have in there tap water.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:12 PM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by Mikaila31 View Post
Interesting since the lowest possible copper levels in my tap about 7 times that and it is possibly higher then that. Even before I had planted tanks I stopped using any conditioners or dechlorinatiors and nothing seemed even slightly stressed. I also have a very hard time following this given all the copper based meds we use in this hobby for parasite control and those are not killing our fish either... They will kill shrimp for sure. This is generally why I keep shrimp as they are much more sensitive then fish and provide a good early warning system. Amusingly ich will die from copper toxicity before your fish will. Maybe this is why I never see ich in my tanks lol.

There is actually a natural trout run thing within a mile of this house. There are natural springs there, I know of half a dozen piped and non-piped springs. I have always assumed they come from the same aquifer as our well because both have about 20ppm of nitrate at the source, copper levels are probably different. I can agree with you on location kinda. I had a hard time drinking tap water in much more arid states. Around here lakes and smaller rivers are often spring fed. I know a lot of people don't know indepth where their tap water comes from which is a shame.

Using Sodium thiosulfate is usually done much more accurately then bottled dechlors which usually add more then you need. The general procedure is to test chlorine levels in your tap water, this is generally a inexpensive test since it is so common. Then do add Sodium thiosulfate to deal with those levels. There is a good calculator online for dosing Sodium thiosulfate, this however is target towards ponds. One would generally make a stock solution in RO water where for example 1 drop per 10 gallons removed 1ppm of chlorine. Prime can neutralize 4ppm of chlorine following directions, which is a lot more then what most people have in there tap water.
Thanks, I'll look into this. My tap water is heavy with chlorine, most days just turning on the tap you can easily smell it. Once (and only once fortunately) I forgot to add the conditioner in one tank (70g) during my water changes. I change half the tank weekly. I finished filling it (Python from the tap) and started draining the next tank. I make a habit of looking into the tanks after the change, just to ensure everything is OK; half the fish in the 70g were at the surface, gasping with very red gills. I instinctively knew immediately that I had forgotten the conditioner, so i squirted it in and mixed it with my hand. Within seconds they settled down, though sadly I did lose a couple of the delicate pencils.
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