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What is the relationship between nitrate and algae

This is a discussion on What is the relationship between nitrate and algae within the Beginner Planted Aquarium forums, part of the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium category; --> Originally Posted by Fishin Pole A Ph change from CO2 or Kh is not doing the fish any good......Their systems do not distinguish the ...

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What is the relationship between nitrate and algae
Old 10-21-2009, 07:03 PM   #51
 
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Originally Posted by Fishin Pole View Post
A Ph change from CO2 or Kh is not doing the fish any good......Their systems do not distinguish the difference, but they dont tolorate ANY Ph change if its severe.......Its a matter how much the Ph changes and how long it remains stable till the next change.........I have known people with tanks who lost fish due to CO2 systems malfunctioning, its not a risk im willing to take to benefit my plants.....My plants grow fine without it....Not all of us want super fast plant growth at the risk of losing prized fish

pH changes due to salts, harm fish if done rapidly.
pH changes done with CO2 gas do not.


fish die from too much co2 yeah, but its not the ph change that causes death!!
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Old 10-22-2009, 02:11 AM   #52
 
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I am with Fishinpole. If rapid or large pH shifts kill my fish , then large pH shifts are to be avoided. Whether the cause of death was from sudden alkalinity change ,or through blood acidosis from too much CO2. For the majority of hobbyist's both would be undesireable and without a degree in pysiology of fishes,, most would make no distinction between the causes. Certainly not the fish.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:45 AM   #53
 
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I am with Fishinpole. If rapid or large pH shifts kill my fish , then large pH shifts are to be avoided. Whether the cause of death was from sudden alkalinity change ,or through blood acidosis from too much CO2. For the majority of hobbyist's both would be undesireable and without a degree in pysiology of fishes,, most would make no distinction between the causes. Certainly not the fish.
i agree that fish death are not wanted but if death occurred due to the reasons above then they are NOT directly related to PH are they?

CO2 injected tanks can easily go thro a PH change of 0.5 - 0.8 within 2-3 hours every morning.

if a W/C is done when the water is at "peak" CO2 levels then a 0.5 PH change could occur in the time it takes to refill the tank with water.
if i lost fish every W/C then i wouldn't carry on with my methods.

imo this is very much like the nitrate/algae discussion and making a false correlation between two unrelated variables.
guys running tanks with constantly low nitrates and claiming high nitrates cause algae, but never actually adding KNO3 to see if that really is true.

if you have never witnessed the PH change due to adding or removing CO2 you wont have witnessed the lack of reaction the fish show!
i use a ph meter so i can see at any time what my ph is and how rapidly it can change.
my cardinals seem pretty happy..........
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:17 AM   #54
 
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I am no expert , so I rely on books published by experts such as .. Physiology of fish in Intensive Culture systems by Gary A. Wedemeyer,, Fish Physiology Volume IV by W.S. Hoar and DJ Randall, and The American Journal of Enviornmental Sciences.
All mention that High CO2 as well as high organics can cause pH changes in fishes blood that in turn can affect the ability of fish to absorb diffused oxygen accross cell membranes an or inhibit the diffusion of CO2 out of the blood. So while you may have differing views,, I will float my stick with those who have written published books on the topic and who posess degrees in such things. I am pleased that your methods work for you and your fish are well.
For myself. I have been caring for fish since the early 1970's and have heard nothing as of late that would change my views irrespective of your opinions. I will continue to do what has worked for me and wish you continued sucess as well.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:29 PM   #55
 
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How can you state that a Ph change of .5 to .8 via a Co2 exchange is not doing the fish any harm?........A fishes blood doesnt distinguish the difference where the Ph change came from, but that the Ph changes......I have also been raising fish for over 20 years and i see no reason to change a thing......Most of my fish die of old age, not disease, Ph changes or water parameter swings...............Adding CO2 and nutrients seems like a waste of time and money, when myself and other members have had great success without it why would we want to change anything and risk not getting it right the first time........My tanks are heavily planted, very low nitrates, healthy fish.........What is a good reason to change anything?.......Trying to persuade new fish keepers to go with your way of thinking is, in my opinion is doing more harm than good....People get into this hobby and spend alot more money than they realize they were gonna have to spend, and now adding components to their tank is just another thing to go wrong and possilby get them out of the hobby altogether......For advanced hobbyists, your theories sound good, but trying to change people's way of thinking and insinuating they are doing things incorrect is just not good for the hobby or the hobbyist....As 1077 stated, i wish you the best of luck with your tanks, but until the time comes when i cant grow plants or keep fish alive, i keeping things just the way they are......The old saying, dont fix something thats not broke....fits here...
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:37 PM   #56
 
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How can you state that a Ph change of .5 to .8 via a Co2 exchange is not doing the fish any harm?........A fishes blood doesnt distinguish the difference where the Ph change came from, but that the Ph changes......I have also been raising fish for over 20 years and i see no reason to change a thing......Most of my fish die of old age, not disease, Ph changes or water parameter swings...............Adding CO2 and nutrients seems like a waste of time and money, when myself and other members have had great success without it why would we want to change anything and risk not getting it right the first time........My tanks are heavily planted, very low nitrates, healthy fish.........What is a good reason to change anything?.......Trying to persuade new fish keepers to go with your way of thinking is, in my opinion is doing more harm than good....People get into this hobby and spend alot more money than they realize they were gonna have to spend, and now adding components to their tank is just another thing to go wrong and possilby get them out of the hobby altogether......For advanced hobbyists, your theories sound good, but trying to change people's way of thinking and insinuating they are doing things incorrect is just not good for the hobby or the hobbyist....As 1077 stated, i wish you the best of luck with your tanks, but until the time comes when i cant grow plants or keep fish alive, i keeping things just the way they are......The old saying, dont fix something thats not broke....fits here...
non have us have suggested that you change your ways in regards to CO2 so where you got that from i do not know!

Co2 is not a waste of money, people use it to assist high light so they can grow certain species of plants that require high light. if they did not do this they would end up with dying plants, and lots of algae!

Just remember, plants are life forms too and need looking after!

If you have a low light tank you dont need CO2 but adding it is not a waste of time, growth would be improved considerably.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:53 PM   #57
 
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How can you state that a Ph change of .5 to .8 via a Co2 exchange is not doing the fish any harm?........A fishes blood doesnt distinguish the difference where the Ph change came from, but that the Ph changes......I have also been raising fish for over 20 years and i see no reason to change a thing......Most of my fish die of old age, not disease, Ph changes or water parameter swings...............Adding CO2 and nutrients seems like a waste of time and money, when myself and other members have had great success without it why would we want to change anything and risk not getting it right the first time........My tanks are heavily planted, very low nitrates, healthy fish.........What is a good reason to change anything?.......Trying to persuade new fish keepers to go with your way of thinking is, in my opinion is doing more harm than good....People get into this hobby and spend alot more money than they realize they were gonna have to spend, and now adding components to their tank is just another thing to go wrong and possilby get them out of the hobby altogether......For advanced hobbyists, your theories sound good, but trying to change people's way of thinking and insinuating they are doing things incorrect is just not good for the hobby or the hobbyist....As 1077 stated, i wish you the best of luck with your tanks, but until the time comes when i cant grow plants or keep fish alive, i keeping things just the way they are......The old saying, dont fix something thats not broke....fits here...
i know this thread has wandered a tad, but its not really a high tech verses low tech is it??
if you are happy just to look and not really get your hands in there go low tech
if you want fast results, a wider choice of plants, or to have fun "playing" then go high tech

altho saying that you low tech guys do love playing with those inaccurate test kits!
does anybody calibrate them?
or is it just trusting something in blind faith?

it not a question of whats best, its about what you want from it.
i have another tank in planning stages, it'll be low tech, one high tech is enough!!

and i'm pretty sure no one has insinuated that anybody is doing it incorrectly.
the thread started about nitrate and algae. if just one person reads what's been said here, does more research and then realises that they need to look elsewhere for their algae problems then how can that be "not good for the hobby"


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1077 View Post
I am no expert , so I rely on books published by experts such as .. Physiology of fish in Intensive Culture systems by Gary A. Wedemeyer,, Fish Physiology Volume IV by W.S. Hoar and DJ Randall, and The American Journal of Enviornmental Sciences.
All mention that High CO2 as well as high organics can cause pH changes in fishes blood that in turn can affect the ability of fish to absorb diffused oxygen accross cell membranes an or inhibit the diffusion of CO2 out of the blood. So while you may have differing views,, I will float my stick with those who have written published books on the topic and who posess degrees in such things. I am pleased that your methods work for you and your fish are well.
For myself. I have been caring for fish since the early 1970's and have heard nothing as of late that would change my views irrespective of your opinions. I will continue to do what has worked for me and wish you continued sucess as well.
i cant answer other than what i've already said.
i can give you link to a post full of references on the subject tho if you are interested?
its a bit beyond me, may make sense to you tho!. :0)

Last edited by baron von bubba; 10-22-2009 at 08:58 PM..
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:10 PM   #58
 
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I think the point here is that nitrates, or any other nutrient for that matter, in reasonable excess, does not in and of itself cause algae. Nor can we really eliminate algae by limiting nutrients, as the concentration needed by algae are on the order of parts per BILLION, 1000 times more dilute than our test kits can see even on a good day. If the balance of light, CO2, nutrients, bioload, etc, etc on and on is wrong to the point negatively affecting plant growth, algae will take advantage. Like it or not, heavily fertilized tanks exist with no algae issues, so the excess nutrient theory cannot be validated. Light is the key here. Too much for the plant mass, CO2 levels (however they are achieved, injected in high tech tanks or the result of bacterial activity, fish respiration, etc) is the biggest cause, by far. Plants thrive, algae does not. Plants suffer, algae takes advantage.
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