Plant Issues - Stem & Sag - Page 2 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources

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post #11 of 18 Old 01-14-2013, 11:45 AM
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I would actually lean more towards increasing food- It will produce more co2 as well. Just remember, the currently yellow leaves wont change, but can be removed when the new growth comes in.

I've got potassium nitrate and csm+b, but I mostly use them as a foliar spray for my emersed growth experiments.

When I feed enough of a wide variety of foods, I don't need to dose them.
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post #12 of 18 Old 01-14-2013, 12:30 PM
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I don't disagree with Redchigh, but some plants only produce certain colors of pigments (the caratenoids = reds and yellows) only under more intense light. You can add all the CO2 possible, but with insufficient light, for some species, you'll then never get the color.

Ditto with the minimum light requirement for a particular plant. Each species has the ability to shift it's photosynthetic minimum, to some extent, over time. Ecologically/evolutionarily, that capability varies by species. Too little light for a sun-loving species, and the plant will either die or not thrive, regardless of CO2 levels. In general (very broad generalization here!), broader leaf plants are more shade/low-light tolerant.

18 species/varieties of fish, 15 species/varieties of plants - The fish are finally ahead of the plants!
*560 gallons (2120 liters) in 5 tanks -> you do the math.
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post #13 of 18 Old 01-14-2013, 01:30 PM
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I agree completely. This is no different than my garden plants. My back yard is fairly well shaded, sun gets through most everywhere but only for fairly brief periods as it moves past surrounding garden trees. I cannot keep plants alive that need sun; and this is certainly nothing to do with CO2 or nutrients when I fertilize, but solely the light.

And the balance is the key. The more light, the more nutrients. And some plants just need this, such as most stem plants. But you have to look at all the nutrients.

To your (Tracy) question on nitrates. It is common for heavily planted tanks to have low nitrates, often zero, with a natural [=non-CO2 diffusion] method. My tanks all run under 10ppm, and all but one is under 5ppm. This is good for the fish too, as we now know that nitrates above 20ppm do harm fish long-term.

Whenever one starts citing Tom's views, it is wise to remember that he has plant tanks that may (most may not) have fish. Most of us have fish tanks with live plants, a very different perspective. You cannot start dumping nitrates into a tank with fish without causing harm to the fish.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #14 of 18 Old 01-15-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
I agree completely. This is no different than my garden plants. My back yard is fairly well shaded, sun gets through most everywhere but only for fairly brief periods as it moves past surrounding garden trees. I cannot keep plants alive that need sun; and this is certainly nothing to do with CO2 or nutrients when I fertilize, but solely the light.

And the balance is the key. The more light, the more nutrients. And some plants just need this, such as most stem plants. But you have to look at all the nutrients.

To your (Tracy) question on nitrates. It is common for heavily planted tanks to have low nitrates, often zero, with a natural [=non-CO2 diffusion] method. My tanks all run under 10ppm, and all but one is under 5ppm. This is good for the fish too, as we now know that nitrates above 20ppm do harm fish long-term.

Whenever one starts citing Tom's views, it is wise to remember that he has plant tanks that may (most may not) have fish. Most of us have fish tanks with live plants, a very different perspective. You cannot start dumping nitrates into a tank with fish without causing harm to the fish.

Byron.
Must disagree with your last sentence .
Tom's tank's often hold all manner of fishes,invert's(ask him Barr report.com) and nitrates in the form of KNO3 are routinely dumped as you call it ,in his tank's along with phosphates KH2PO4, and pottasium K2SO4.(so do many other's keeping some sensitive species appisto's,Discus,shrimp's.
Nitrogen in the form of inorganic mineral salt KNO3, is much different than Nitrate as result of organic waste.(fish food,fish poo)
These mineral salt's are macronutrient's that plant's thrive on, and even in low tech natural planted aqauria, scaled back dosing of these do no harm in my and many other's expieriences .
Tom barr's NON CO2 method is method I chose to follow a couple year's back now ,and I have seen no negative effect on fishes or shrimp's I care for, and I place a much higher value on fishes,shrimp's than I do weed's.Nitrogen level's between 30 to 40 ppm in my tank's.Why aren't my fishes,shrimp's dieing?(sell,trade,lot's of em)
Because another method is different ,is no reason to poo poo another, unless one is willing to try,do,then speak.
Must be fair in my view.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.

Last edited by 1077; 01-15-2013 at 05:11 AM.
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post #15 of 18 Old 01-15-2013, 11:42 AM
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Must disagree with your last sentence .
Tom's tank's often hold all manner of fishes,invert's(ask him Barr report.com) and nitrates in the form of KNO3 are routinely dumped as you call it ,in his tank's along with phosphates KH2PO4, and pottasium K2SO4.(so do many other's keeping some sensitive species appisto's,Discus,shrimp's.
Nitrogen in the form of inorganic mineral salt KNO3, is much different than Nitrate as result of organic waste.(fish food,fish poo)
These mineral salt's are macronutrient's that plant's thrive on, and even in low tech natural planted aqauria, scaled back dosing of these do no harm in my and many other's expieriences .
Tom barr's NON CO2 method is method I chose to follow a couple year's back now ,and I have seen no negative effect on fishes or shrimp's I care for, and I place a much higher value on fishes,shrimp's than I do weed's.Nitrogen level's between 30 to 40 ppm in my tank's.Why aren't my fishes,shrimp's dieing?(sell,trade,lot's of em)
Because another method is different ,is no reason to poo poo another, unless one is willing to try,do,then speak.
Must be fair in my view.
The photos I have seen of Tom's tanks on the AG site have plants but no fish, but I accept he may have tanks with fish. I also know from personal communications that his plants come first. He advised me not to do water changes in my tanks and when I suggested the fish benefited he said the plants would be much better without.

Nitrate is toxic to all fish at any level, this is scientific fact. The degree to which fish are harmed at at what exact levels is not so clearly understood. But the three common forms of nitrogen, whether ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, are all toxic to some extent. I personally would rather not increase nitrate to such levels.

I believe you know Neale Monks, so you might want to contact him. He has more than once written in PFK that all our aquarium fish are negatively affected by nitrate above 20ppm, and in one instance he singled out cichlids as being particularly affected by nitrate at 20ppm and recommended nitrates be kept no higher than 10ppm. I can't argue with that as he is an ichthyologist and I am not.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]

Last edited by Byron; 01-15-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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post #16 of 18 Old 01-16-2013, 05:24 AM
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I respect your view's greatly,(share many of them) along with Mr. monk's views, and agree that some fishes,(cichlid's in particular) will fair better with nitrate level's below 20 ppm which is often much easier said than done in tank's holding fishes and no plant's.In heavily stocked aquaria,or tank's holding large waste producer's and no plant's,this may require twice weekly water changes ,reduced feeding's,reduced stock level's,or all of the above.(in my expieriences)
Will also suggest, through my observation's that without plant's,, nearly all fishes will do better with nitrate level's kept at lower level's,20ppm or less, for nitrates in these tank's are direct result of metabolic waste (ie) fish waste,fish food's.(no plant's to use it )
Tom Barr's NON CO2 method work's well for growing plant's, and as mentioned I have been utilizing this method with one exception,,I still perform weekly or bi-weekly water change for like you,,I keep quite a few fishes.By the end of two week's in my tank's with plant's,fish,,,nitrate level's are near non existent according to test kit, and I then add KNO3 from 1/8 tsp in 20 gal tank's to 1/2 tsp in 60 to 80 gal tank's along with equal or lesser amount's of KH2PO4,K2SO4. Plant's respond favorably, and as mentioned,I have seen no ill effect's by livestock that readily breed.
Your method work's well also, and with enough fish,fishfood's,fish waste,What I am doing may very well not be needed, but it is but one method out of several that I chose to try.
I fully intend to try them all,Good lord willing.
As Tom likes to say,,"Choose a method and learn it well" then try another.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.

Last edited by 1077; 01-16-2013 at 05:31 AM.
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post #17 of 18 Old 01-18-2013, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Here's where I'm at since the orignal post:

All of my stem plants rotted/melted from the base of the plant at the subtrate and were removed which included my Pinnadifitia :(

However, as I could see the envitable, I cut the tops out of several of the plants which still appeared viable and green and replanted those tops.

I removed the decaying yellow leaves from the one crypt and at this point there is no new growth. Only one of the crypts developed the yellowing leaves.

There is new growth on three of the seven sags.

I have developed a green hair like alagae and as of yesterday have reduced my lighting from 11 hours to 10 hours - should I move to 9 hours?.

I perfromed my normal 50% weekly water change yesterday.

Today there is noticeable growth to the planted tops as well as the new growth that appeared in the sags.

There is one plant I forgot to mention in my initial plant list which I added a couple of weeks ago: Hemianthus micranthemoides. This plant (knock on wood) seems to be thriving and like the other plants- with the water change I see every plant of this species with new buds.

I'm on well water and besides reducing my lighting I'm thinking of changing the water in this tank every 5th day as opposed to 7.

The plants, like my fish, seem to have responded quite favorably to the fresh water. -- Is this just my imagination? :)

Or is it an indicator of an issue?

Have fun and be PATIENT!
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post #18 of 18 Old 01-18-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tracy Bird View Post
Here's where I'm at since the orignal post:

All of my stem plants rotted/melted from the base of the plant at the subtrate and were removed which included my Pinnadifitia :(

However, as I could see the envitable, I cut the tops out of several of the plants which still appeared viable and green and replanted those tops.

I removed the decaying yellow leaves from the one crypt and at this point there is no new growth. Only one of the crypts developed the yellowing leaves.

There is new growth on three of the seven sags.

I have developed a green hair like alagae and as of yesterday have reduced my lighting from 11 hours to 10 hours - should I move to 9 hours?.

I perfromed my normal 50% weekly water change yesterday.

Today there is noticeable growth to the planted tops as well as the new growth that appeared in the sags.

There is one plant I forgot to mention in my initial plant list which I added a couple of weeks ago: Hemianthus micranthemoides. This plant (knock on wood) seems to be thriving and like the other plants- with the water change I see every plant of this species with new buds.

I'm on well water and besides reducing my lighting I'm thinking of changing the water in this tank every 5th day as opposed to 7.

The plants, like my fish, seem to have responded quite favorably to the fresh water. -- Is this just my imagination? :)

Or is it an indicator of an issue?
This is much what I would expect, so nice work. The change in light was major. As for water changes, if you can manage more, they will not harm. I find once a week to be easiest to manage, but again, the more the merrier. Just be regular and consistant, this does make a difference on plants and fish.

You could reduce the lighting, I have found 8 hours to be the most I can do without brush algae increasing. Each tank is different. I use algae as the guide to duration, once everything else is settled.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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