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Overdose Course Of Treatment

This is a discussion on Overdose Course Of Treatment within the Beginner Planted Aquarium forums, part of the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium category; --> Byron, Fish Monger and Nemo, In addition to the above post, I treat my tap water with Prime and after 48 hours, I add ...

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Overdose Course Of Treatment
Old 10-26-2012, 06:39 AM   #11
 
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Byron, Fish Monger and Nemo,
In addition to the above post, I treat my tap water with Prime and after 48 hours, I add some Equalibrium to raise the general hardness to 9 dGH. I have a 26 gallon treatment tank plus a trash can that holds 14 gallons. The tanks overflow has a microfiber filter added in it that helps quiet the sound of the flow in addition to a length of plastic tubing installed partly in the overflow drain.
This filter turns a rusty color, most of which does not get removed by treating with bleach but gets removed within 5 to 10 minutes by using a rust removing product.
I make sure the filter is rinsed a few times and then treated with prime before it is used again.
So I suspect it is Ferric iron that was once ferrous iron and the Prime converted it to a solid so that the filter can pick it up.
I have no idea if other heavy metals are attached to the filter.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:18 AM   #12
 
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Here is Seachems reply to the questions on Flourish & Prime:

Hello Robert,

Thank you for the email and for your interest in Prime! I will answer your questions in the order they were asked for sake of clarity:

1. Prime removes heavy metals by precipitating them out of solution, therefore, they are no longer available. Our research shows that heavy metals can quickly build up in plants cells because they are not utilized as quickly as other important elements, thus causing the plants to decline.

2. Yes, we produce individual products that supply the necessary elements for healthy and happy plants. When you dose these elements separately, you can be much more precise and provide the plants with exactly what they need.

3. The Prime is typically used to detoxify heavy metals at typical concentrations found in tap water. As long as you are not dosing the Prime at the exact same time as you dose the Flourish, there is no need to worry about precipitating out any elements found in Flourish.

4. Flourish Trace is specifically a trace element supplement, while the Flourish Comprehensive is more of a broad spectrum fertilizer that contains micro, macro, some trace elements, and other important nutrients such as calcium, magnesium, and iron.

I hope this information is helpful and if you have further questions, let us know!

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So from the above, fishkeepers who dose Prime in their tanks must compensate for the loss of heavy metals by adding more then the recommended level of Flourish every time Prime is used, but only after waiting 48 hours for Prime to do its job and neutralized or precipitate out of solution.

Last edited by rjordan390; 10-26-2012 at 09:36 AM..
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:28 PM   #13
 
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You have answered some of your own questions, before I got to this, but I will add some additional thoughts.

First, as Seachem told you (and me some time back), it is best in their opinion to wait 24 hours after using Prime before adding Flourish, and their response explains why. Some others think this is unnecessary, but I wait a day after the water change to add my first of two weekly doses of Flourish. No harm is done by waiting. And I would mention that this applies to any water conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals, and most do. I for instance do not use Prime becaue I don't need or want all that it does with respect to ammonia and nitrite. Now to your other points.

Quote:
Can plants still use de-toxifyed metals? Yes/No or to what degree?
As Seachem explained it, no, so I will leave that.

Quote:
Is this the reason Seachem manufacturers other supplements like iron and trace elements to name two?
No. Plants require 17 nutrients, and in certain proportion to each other. This has to be balanced by sufficient light (intensity, also duration). This complete balance can be at different levels, and light is the catalyst. Those of us with a low-tech or "natural" method planted tank use moderate light, and a once or twice weekly dose of Flourish Comprehensive is all we need. Flourish has all nutrients except cabon,oxygen and hydrogen--all of which occur naturally in the aquarium--so it provides everything and in proportion.

Going up a level, when you start increasing the light intensity you need to increase everything else to balance. And that is where the other products come into play. In other words, they are intended more for higer-tech systems.

Quote:
How can Flourish be a complete fertilizer if a fishkeeper uses Prime that affects the heavy metals that are listed in the Flourish?
Why does their Trace elements have more ingrediants then those listed in Flourish?
I think I covered this above.

Quote:
So this may be a reason why one needs to add a higher dosage beyond the recommendation or to use their Iron supplement and Trace elements to compensate.
No, as explained above. And adding too much of some nutrients can cause real problems. Some are toxic (like the metals iron, copper, etc). Some will cause plants to shut down assimilation of other nutrients, creating an artificial deficiency. This is why it is important to add everything in proportion. And, in some situations, certain nutrients may be lacking. For example, I have very soft water, so calcium and magnesium in partcular are almost lacking and there is insufficient of these in products like Flourish to make up the shortfall. I use Equilibrium for this, and I note you mentioned it too. BTW, add Equilibrium right after the water change. It is only hard minerals and these are not affectd by Prime or similar conditioners.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by rjordan390 View Post

3. The Prime is typically used to detoxify heavy metals at typical concentrations found in tap water. As long as you are not dosing the Prime at the exact same time as you dose the Flourish, there is no need to worry about precipitating out any elements found in Flourish.


So from the above, fishkeepers who dose Prime in their tanks must compensate for the loss of heavy metals by adding more then the recommended level of Flourish every time Prime is used, but only after waiting 48 hours for Prime to do its job and neutralized or precipitate out of solution.
Comment #3 from Seachem and your comment reflect different uses of Prime. Seachem says "unless ... at the exact same time..." but any time thereafter, and you are saying "only after waiting 48 hours". This refers to dosing heavy metal bearing fertilizers.

I'm going to continue to dose Flourish Comprehensive into the filter, where it goes directly into the tank, about 1/2 hour after adding API Tap Water Conditioner just to be sure (removes heavy metals) and Equilibrium until I see some sign of deficiency of heavy metals. I really think that in answer #3, Seachem really answers the question in plain words.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:41 PM   #15
 
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The 48 hours wait after using Prime is my preferance just to be on the safe side. I believe I read replies on this forum that one should wait at least 24 to 48 hours before adding flourish or any other supplements. At Aquatic Plant Central, a Seachem technical support person said Prime can last up to 48 hours.
I do not understand why Seachem support said "as long as you do not dose both Flourish and Prime at the same time". This nearly contradicts what the above technical support member said 5 years ago.

You are using API's dechlorinater, so your case may be differant.
But for me, I prefer to have 40 gallon replacement water ready at all times. Prime goes into this water. The last time I used this product in my main tank was when it was cycling.


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Re: How long does Prime stay in the tank?
Prime can bind ammonia for 48 hours. There is definitely no need to dose that much Prime to the water. Water conditioners in general are reducing agents and can when grossly overdose reduce the oxygen content in the water.

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Last edited by rjordan390; 10-26-2012 at 10:45 PM..
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:03 PM   #16
 
The page linked below accompanying the excerpt cover "Chelation", apparently the process by which water conditioners de-toxify heavy metals.
"Chelation. The humic substances discussed in the previous pages act as chelators. An organic or synthetic molecule that "chelates" ionic metals or other inorganic ions that are free in solution, grabs onto the ions as if with a lobster claw— Greek "chela"— and binds them. That way they are hidden away, thus "sequestered"— another term you might hear. When metal ions are bound to another inorganic molecule instead, they are more usually said to be "complexed."
Chelated metal ions are rendered more stable, and they are also de-toxified, because they are less available to the biological processes of animals, less "bioavailable". There's a chelating molecule EDTA (see below) included in many water "conditioners", intended to bind toxic free copper especially, but lead, cadmium, iron, mercury etc. are bound as well. Besides EDTA, there are many other man-made chelators."
Sounds like addition of sufficient chelating agent would bond with dissolved heavy metal ions, rendering them non-bioavailable.

Read the rest...
Chelation | The Skeptical Aquarist

Last edited by equatics; 10-27-2012 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:10 PM   #17
 
"Macro nutrients are calcium, sulfates, phosphates, potassium, chloride, sodium, nitrogen and magnesium. These nutrients are provided by fish and fish food in ample supply. Macro nutrients do not need to be added frequently, if at all, as they will be mostly replenished through water changes.

Essential micro nutrients such as iron, manganese, zinc, boron, copper, cobalt, and molybdenum on the other hand have to be added frequently. The main function of these nutrients is the promotion of growth hormones, photosynthesis, cell development, plant metabolism, and nitrogen assimilation.

The assumption that plants take on most nutrients through their leaves is incorrect. Leafs absorb CO2 and release oxygen. Essential nutrients such as iron, phosphates and nitrogen are readily absorbed by the roots under anoxic conditions found in the substrate.

Plant fertilizers are available as liquid or substrate fertilizers. Both should only contain the micro nutrients. Liquid fertilizers have to be dosed more frequently; substrate fertilizers will last longer. Since there are no obvious differences in efficiency, it is up to the aquarists' preference which to use.

Next to the micro nutrients, fertilizers contain chelates. The chelate is an organic molecule which binds metal ions thus protecting them from early precipitation. The preferred type is abbreviated DTPA because of its stability up to a pH level of 7.5

Unfortunately some fertilizers contain the chelate EDTA, which is much cheaper. However chelate EDTA is only stable at a pH up to 6.0 and therefore mostly useless in aquariums."

If you recall, water conditioners also use a chelator to render heavy metal ions non-bioavailable (de-toxified).

Fertilizing Aquarium Plants - Algone.com

Last edited by equatics; 10-27-2012 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:54 AM   #18
 
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I did read that report and found it hard to follow; but the article on "Fertilizing Aquarium Plants" was more understandable.
However you mentioned that you will be dosing Flourish 1/2 hour after dosing Prime. I believe that is too soon. Seachem's explanation was vaque ("as long as you do not dose at the same time") The tech support person should have given a time interval between using the two products.
Their Prime as mention will detoxify heavy metals. Now Flourish and their Trace product has some of these heavy metals. Heavy metals are defined by the scientific community as those with a specific gravity of 5 X or more of the S.G. of water which is 1.
So according to Seachem, the following heavy metals in their Flourish & Trace are detoxified when using Prime.
Molybdenum .......10.2 S.G.
Cobalt ................8.9 S.G.
Nickel .................8.9 S.G.
Copper ...............8.8 S.G.
Manganese ..........7.4 S.G.
Iron ...................7.3 S.G.
Zinc ...................7.2 S.G
vanadium .............6.1 S.G.

This is one of the two reasons why I prefer to have a separate water treatment setup treated with Prime before it is added to my aquarium. By the time of my water change, Prime is no longer in solution or has no effect when dosing Flourish or Trace Elements at that time.

Last edited by rjordan390; 10-28-2012 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:22 PM   #19
 
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Agree. Seachem told me that Prime remains effective for 24-36 hours, and will bind metals during that period. So wait a day before adding Flourish Comp.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:35 AM   #20
 
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Agree. Seachem told me that Prime remains effective for 24-36 hours, and will bind metals during that period. So wait a day before adding Flourish Comp.
Ok, as you said in an earlier post, Byron, it certainly doesn't hurt to wait.
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