Microsword and or Pygmy chain sword
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Microsword and or Pygmy chain sword

This is a discussion on Microsword and or Pygmy chain sword within the Beginner Planted Aquarium forums, part of the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium category; --> To continue off from what you said in http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...4/#post1037791 Byron: Originally Posted by Byron Now I'm almost positive that the plant was actually microsword, ...

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Microsword and or Pygmy chain sword
Old 04-06-2012, 06:50 PM   #1
 
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Microsword and or Pygmy chain sword

To continue off from what you said in http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...4/#post1037791 Byron:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
Now I'm almost positive that the plant was actually microsword, or Lilaeopsis brasiliensis [this is the most common species, there are some others]. Grown emersed, as most aquarium plants are, they are nearly identical in leaf structure. In fact, in another thread, i identified the plant in a photo as Hellanthium tenellum until zof corrected me and i took a second look and agreed with him.

This plant is much more difficult; mine [which were labelled "Tenellus sword" even] yellowed and melted within a couple weeks in 2 or 3 different tanks. I kept one "root" in the 70g and left it alone, and it has now after several months spread a bit, but it is feeble.

Byron.
Just so we are talking about the same plants or to figure if I am calling a plant by a different name. I think I have both species or had both that you are talking about.
Microsword or Lilaeopsis beasiliensis. I was/an under the impression that this plant
43789d1324276621-my-55-gallon-journal-2011-12-19-01.jpg
was it. That is an old pic and how I first planted it. I was told shortly after that it might grow and do better for me if I would spread it out some So I did here as shown in this pic
45285d1326084991-my-55-gallon-journal-43866d1324409808-my-55-gallon-journal-2011.jpg
From there it did send out runners and as double in size. This is the lastest pic taken a couple of hours ago. It has seemed to slow down a lot but its leaves are not turning yellow or anything and still seems to health.?.

Now for Pygmy Chain sword or what I think is ( under the impression from the store ) this :
45282d1326084903-my-55-gallon-journal-2012-01-08-23.jpg
This an old I found on my 55 gallon journal thread but like I said it never did anything more then what you see in the pic other then die.
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File Type: jpg 2012-04-06 15.33.54.jpg (59.1 KB, 70 views)
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:50 PM   #2
 
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I don't think any of the plants in those photos is Helanthium tenellum [previously or sometimes still seen as Echinodorus tenellus]. So that clears that up.

Seriously though, the first two photos I agree are Lilaeopsis brasiliensis. The third photo looks to me like Ophiopogon japonicus var. kyoto which is the dwarf form of the Fountain Plant and as you know not a true aquatic. The first photo below is of this plant according to Aquatic Plant Central. Your last phot which you say is the same plant looks more like L. brasiliensis again; you're sure this developed from the plant in photo 3?

The next three photos below are of Helanthium tenellum: submersed, submersed with red colour (light dependent) and emersed form.
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File Type: jpg Ophiopogon japonicus var kyoto.jpg (34.3 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg Helanthium tenellum1.jpg (51.3 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg Helanthium tenellum2.jpg (66.5 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg Helanthium tenellum3.jpg (57.6 KB, 64 views)

Last edited by Byron; 04-06-2012 at 08:52 PM..
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:14 PM   #3
 
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Well that certainly does clear it up. My picture does very much look like the Ophiopogon japonicus var. kyoto. Yes it doesn't grow under water at all. Am kinda confused as why Petco had it mark as something different? I am pretty sure they had it marked as Chain sword?

My pictures got mixed up somehow. #1,2,4 are all the same plant. #3 is the Ophinopogon japonicus var. kyoto.

Well with that I am seriously thinking about ordering some Pygmy Chain sword to grow. Thinking if I can get Lilaeopsis brasiliensis to grow surely I can get Pygmy Chain sword to grow. I do have some Dwarf Sagittaria coming though so I will see how that works first. Thanks for helping clear this mystery to me up!

Last edited by Boredomb; 04-06-2012 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by Boredomb View Post
Well that certainly does clear it up. My picture does very much look like the Ophiopogon japonicus var. kyoto. Yes it doesn't grow under water at all. Am kinda confused as why Petco had it mark as something different? I am pretty sure they had it marked as Chain sword?

My pictures got mixed up somehow. #1,2,4 are all the same plant. #3 is the Ophinopogon japonicus var. kyoto.

Well with that I am seriously thinking about ordering some Pygmy Chain sword to grow. Thinking if I can get Lilaeopsis brasiliensis to grow surely I can get Pygmy Chain sword to grow. I do have some Dwarf Sagittaria coming though so I will see how that works first. Thanks for helping clear this mystery to me up!
You're welcome. Below is a photo of my L. brasiliensis mixed in with the H. tenellum, you can just see the L. in behind. This is Flourite substrate, and more light than my other tanks due to the shallower depth; still it does not do well, this is now a year after planting it. The H. tenellum runners in front are from two plants somewhere near the back.

Second photo is just some plants pulled from the other tanks and now in the 20g (no fish, lots of snails though). That is Vallisneria in the back, but along the front you can see 3 or 4 different forms of H. tenellum, according to the conditions in the tanks they came from. The plants on the extreme left and right I think are the wider leaf form, used to be E. quadricostatus but now apparently H. bolivianus, though I got the original of this plant as E. tenellum at a club auction in 1997, but it has always been larger than the E. tenellum narrow leaf that I bought three years ago and which is now throughout the 70g.

I just took these a moment ago, my camera is rather cheap so detail is not the best.
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File Type: jpg DSCN0803.jpg (90.8 KB, 63 views)
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:43 PM   #5
 
Lots of snails

Byron, caught your remark in reference to your aquarium, about a lot of snails. What are the pros, and cons with the snails. I have looked at some cool snails at the LPS, and thought about adding a few. They reproduce quickly? How is the population controlled? I have soft acidic water, are there snails that would not live in this type. I read of one that needs brackish water to reproduce.

I should also quarantine any snail before placing it into the community? Do they carry diseases that can transfer to fish? What would I look for, or watch out for on a snail?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:35 AM   #6
 
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Byron, caught your remark in reference to your aquarium, about a lot of snails. What are the pros, and cons with the snails. I have looked at some cool snails at the LPS, and thought about adding a few. They reproduce quickly? How is the population controlled? I have soft acidic water, are there snails that would not live in this type. I read of one that needs brackish water to reproduce.

I should also quarantine any snail before placing it into the community? Do they carry diseases that can transfer to fish? What would I look for, or watch out for on a snail?
Well I am certainly no Byron but I can answer some of your questions but first when you say "looked at some cool snails at the LPS" do you know what kind they were for sure? I know of 2 commonly seen snails that most pet stores see as pest snails. The snails that you can see in Byron photos are Bladder/pond snails and Malaysian trumpet (or livebearing) snails (MTS). I have the latter one in my tank. They are great for aerating your substrate as they will burrow into it and clean up debris that you can not. They can also get into places you can not get to to clean. The Bladder snails will do the same with the expection for burrowing into the substrate. I use to have lots and lots of Bladder snails in my tanks. They never bothered me but some people find them annoying because they will climb on the sides of the tanks. I now have hundreds of MTS in my tank and very few if any bladder snails. Not sure why this is though once I added the MTSs the Bladder snails started to decline(might be the MTS eat all the food before the Bladder snails do?). Both of those snails are your friend in an aquarium.

There are a few other types of snails out there also like the Ramshorn Snail, Mystery Snail, and Nerite Snail, and Apple snails just to name a few. You could see any one of these in the store though some like the Bladder or Malaysian trumpet snails might be consider pests and you could get them for little to no money as some stores give them away.

I have no experience with Apple or Mystery or even the Nerite snails but I think they just eat aglae and thats it. Could be wrong here so if some is reading this and know Please step in and correct me. Ramshorn will eat pretty much the same as the bladder snails which is food droppings, aglae, debris and some have even been know to eat live plants (just the Ramshorn here).

Now the Ramshorn and The Bladder and MTS stay somewhat small but the Mystery Snail and the Apple snail can get pretty big. Not sure about the size of the Nerite snail.

You asked about Population control and do the reproduce fast? Well they (the ones I know of Bladder, Malaysian trumpet snail) will only reproduce as much as the food supply will accommodate. So if there isn't lot of food then the population should stay small. On the other hand if you over feed you will have a explosion of snails.

Having soft acidic water can be a problem with some snails as they need the calcium for they shells to stay healthy. The ones I know for sure that be at risk here are the Mystery snails and maybe the Apple. I know Byron has the same type of water and he is able to keep Malaysian trumpet and maybe Bladder snails without a problem best of my memory.

I don't know of any diseases that can transfer from a snail to a fish and I have never quarantine a snail. Though there might be some so wait to hear what someone else has to say. Hope this helps you a little
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:09 AM   #7
 
Much needed advise

Yes, thank you for the info. I believe the snail is a natural function in the aquarium. I heard somewhere, and some time in life that they will over run your aquarium, but it is logical what you stated. The food runs out so does the natural desire to reproduce.
I believe what I have seen at the LPSs has been the Ramshorn, they made note to it on the face of the small holding tank. I do not want plant eaters, I want my plants to live long, and multiply. I wonder about the digging in the substrate? I figure the snail is not large enough to uproot plants. I would not mind having a "bunch" of small snail either, it looks natural.
The snails do not leave the tank either, correct. They are strictly aquatic, and I would never find them laying dead on the rug, or crawling down the outside of the glass. LOL

I remember when I was a little child, say 60 years ago. There was a place near our home, a park, where people could gather spring water. The water came out from a rock structure, and people would fill bottles with this water to take home. There were snails in this water, and the main stream of water would run over some snails before it would go into the bottles that people held in place. As a child I was more amused by the snails. So , I will be looking for these Malaysian Trumpet Snails. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:23 AM   #8
 
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You are welcome! The Malaysian trumpet snails can get up to an inch I think but they will not up root any plants. They will some times crawl on the glass but not as aften as the Bladder snails. You shouldn't find them on the outside of the tank. Now I think I remember seeing somewhere where someone had a problem with Mystery or maybe Apple snails getting out of their tank. Though this isn't usually the case and I personly have never seen a snail on the outside of my tank or anywhere around it. They are strictly aquatic as far as I know. Also on the Ramshorn, I know have seen where someone on here has stated that theirs never ate plants. So it might depend on the species of Ramshorn.On the other hand I have seen where they do. I had one Ramshorn once I didn't notice any holes in my plants at the time but I didn't have it long before it went MIA. I still don't know what happen to it.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:54 AM   #9
 
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MTS are great guys to have, I got a bunch for free at Petsmart. They are considered a pest, so they don't care if you load up on them. Usually you will never see them, or only a couple as they only come out of the substrate during the night. But sometimes a few will venture out during the day. Trust me, you'll have many more than you can see at any given time.

MTS, Pond, and Rams horn snails are asexual, which means they can reproduce with themselves and thus you can get hundreds of them in short order, but as Boredomb has said they will only reproduce to the level of food that is available to them.

Mystery and Apple snails are the same thing. Technically there are numerous different species ... but you'll never know which one you have most likely as stores sell them under one or the other name. These snails however are not asexual and require both a male and a female to reproduce. If you have a female, it might lay eggs above the water line, but without a male they will not fertilize. These snails will eat left over food, waste, and dead or dying plant mater. It's also good to feed them vegtables high in calcium for their shells.

I don't know much about Nerite snails, but they are much the same as Apple/Mystery snails I believe, although I do know they that these snails like to adventure up above the water line so a lid is necessary.

As for water conditions, all snails need basic water, acidic water will erode their shells over time because they are mostly made out of calcium. However with MTS, pond, and rams horn snails they reproduce so quickly this isn't an issue. With the others, it will be.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:07 AM   #10
 
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I enjoyed your web site, real nice
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